vanes and recurves.
Moderator: Moderators
vanes and recurves.
took my new take down 'curve out to our club to show it around a bit as one does[!] and never took any woods [!] so resorted to using 340 carbons and vanes for a 50# bow. Those damn carbons and the VANES flew like darts . I only tried out to 25m but the damn things flew like a guided missile. I know its cut to 1/8'' past centre but fully expected at least some vane 'kick' past the shelf.Unreal!
nil illigitimo in desperandum carborundum
razorbows.com
razorbows.com
- Bald Eagle
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Re: vanes and recurves.
Expanding your horizons Bob. Can't wait to have a try with the new curve. Ian
Re: vanes and recurves.
yeah mate, shoots very well! Will have it out the club next weekend !
nil illigitimo in desperandum carborundum
razorbows.com
razorbows.com
Re: vanes and recurves.
Morning All.
Why?bigbob wrote:... but fully expected at least some vane 'kick' past the shelf. ...
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Re: vanes and recurves.
It is my understanding, flawed or otherwise that vanes being made of a much stiffer material than feathers with their natural propensity to fold down on contact, would 'resist' the lateral force being applied by the motion of a smaller diameter shaft travelling across the shelf with the wider and semi rigid vanes in hot pursuit.Some thing to do with the fulcrum principal I would imagine.
nil illigitimo in desperandum carborundum
razorbows.com
razorbows.com
Re: vanes and recurves.
Afternoon.
Simple comment. Any arrow that is somewhere near the appropriate spine with something like an appropriate nocking point is going to high and to the side of the bow as the fletches go past the riser/arrowrest/hand. Refer Archers Paradox.
Note how far the fletches are away from the riser/hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGNslUNBrEM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drmpx3tnEQw
And for those who are bored and want something to read - http://www.real-world-physics-problems. ... chery.html
What?bigbob wrote:It is my ...
Simple comment. Any arrow that is somewhere near the appropriate spine with something like an appropriate nocking point is going to high and to the side of the bow as the fletches go past the riser/arrowrest/hand. Refer Archers Paradox.
Note how far the fletches are away from the riser/hand.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGNslUNBrEM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=drmpx3tnEQw
And for those who are bored and want something to read - http://www.real-world-physics-problems. ... chery.html
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Re: vanes and recurves.
Hmmmm! so how would you explain the marks left on vanes when using a barebow with something like a 'springy rest pray tell.By those marks the edge of the vanes would still be in contact with the shelf as it passes the window. I do understand what you have said but by your understanding [ and others] the vanes should be convoluting around the shelf without contact.
nil illigitimo in desperandum carborundum
razorbows.com
razorbows.com
Re: vanes and recurves.
Morning Bob.
If you are having contact issues then either the frequency is inappropriate, amplitude is inappropriate nocking point is in appropriate or combinations thereofbigbob wrote:Hmmmm! so how would you explain the marks left on vanes when using a barebow with something like a 'springy rest pray tell.By those marks the edge of the vanes would still be in contact with the shelf as it passes the window. I do understand what you have said but by your understanding [ and others] the vanes should be convoluting around the shelf without contact.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Re: vanes and recurves.
frequency is 104.9FM, Amplitude is 13, and nocking point is on string!
nil illigitimo in desperandum carborundum
razorbows.com
razorbows.com
Re: vanes and recurves.
There is also a difference between shooting off a shelf, and shooting off a elevated arrow rest with plunger button, though the tuning principles still apply. I have seen footage of the archers paradox several times before, and I suspect the the arrow in the attached video was under-spined to create a more dramatic effect for the camera - for it to pass this far to the side as the footage showed.GrahameA wrote:Morning Bob.
If you are having contact issues then either the frequency is inappropriate, amplitude is inappropriate nocking point is in appropriate or combinations thereofbigbob wrote:Hmmmm! so how would you explain the marks left on vanes when using a barebow with something like a 'springy rest pray tell.By those marks the edge of the vanes would still be in contact with the shelf as it passes the window. I do understand what you have said but by your understanding [ and others] the vanes should be convoluting around the shelf without contact.
Re: vanes and recurves.
Afternoon.
If the spine was inappropriate then the frequency would be wrong and there would have been a collision between the arrow and the riser.
If you want to change the amplitude of the vibration change the point mass.
This is what happens when you shoot an underspined arrow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSc6BRMR ... PT2Ftol7fw
Having shot the odd few videos of arrows I will state that the spine of the arrow was correct.Kendaric wrote:.... I have seen footage of the archers paradox several times before, and I suspect the the arrow in the attached video was under-spined to create a more dramatic effect for the camera - for it to pass this far to the side as the footage showed.
If the spine was inappropriate then the frequency would be wrong and there would have been a collision between the arrow and the riser.
If you want to change the amplitude of the vibration change the point mass.
This is what happens when you shoot an underspined arrow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSc6BRMR ... PT2Ftol7fw
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Re: vanes and recurves.
A well tuned Bow, with Matched Arrows shot off the Shelf should have no drama's shooting Vanes if you shoot Cock Vane in - try it, if the Van still contacts rotate the Nock until maximum clearance is obtained and try again.
regards Jacko
regards Jacko
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "
- Charles Darwin
- Charles Darwin
Re: vanes and recurves.
Hi Perry, good to see you've got your interest back.
Watch this video to the end to see what a real under spined arrow can do.
http://youtu.be/96KGWC0PB6s
Watch this video to the end to see what a real under spined arrow can do.
http://youtu.be/96KGWC0PB6s
Lyonel
Re: vanes and recurves.
Hi Pery
Yep. Which is why I commented -perry wrote:A well tuned Bow, with Matched Arrows shot off the Shelf should have no drama's shooting Vanes if you shoot Cock Vane in - try it, if the Van still contacts rotate the Nock until maximum clearance is obtained and try again.
GrahameA wrote:Why?bigbob wrote:... but fully expected at least some vane 'kick' past the shelf. ...
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Re: vanes and recurves.
There is a difference between shooting a slightly underspined arrow, and a grossly underspined one.GrahameA wrote:This is what happens when you shoot an underspined arrow.
I also noticed that in the original video how the string left the fingers, which increased the horizontal movement. In real life, this arrow would have gone left of target.
Shooting off a shelf, this arrow would have needed a very high nocking point for the vanes to clear (not an issue on a raised rest so much), which would also result in a porpoising arrow.
Re: vanes and recurves.
just to clarify a little my original comments did concern my takedown recurve shooting off the shelf, additional comments re marks on vanes actually occurred with a compound shooting off a 'springy' rest. Understand all said about 'archers paradox etc'
nil illigitimo in desperandum carborundum
razorbows.com
razorbows.com
Re: vanes and recurves.
I have noticed a few people doing this.perry wrote: shooting Vanes if you shoot Cock Vane in
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Re: vanes and recurves.
Hi I and a couple of trad guys i know shoot cock feather in; but thats with feathers.
Again i would have to agree with my limited knowledge that shooting the stiffer vanes would couse the arrow to kick left particularly shooting off the shelf but i will have to try experimenting now and see if my theory pans out.
Cheers
.
Again i would have to agree with my limited knowledge that shooting the stiffer vanes would couse the arrow to kick left particularly shooting off the shelf but i will have to try experimenting now and see if my theory pans out.
Cheers
.
Re: vanes and recurves.
Trust me Folks, a properly Spined Arrow does not contact any part of the Bow when shot out of a properly tuned Bow assuming consistent Form. Takes some time and effort though and many Folks have this idea that you just set up a Bow Rule of Thumb and She'll be right. There is a lot of info on this Forum and on the Net re tuning Bows and Arrow Spine, check it out. Trad Archers have been shooting Vanes off the Shelf Cock Vane in for many decades. Get that Bow Tuned and your Arrow Spine sorted and they'll shoot. If you just try switching from Feathers to Vanes with the same Arrow Shaft/ Combination you have changed the Arrows dynamics because Vanes are Heavier and have different Flight characteristics so may have to make fine tweek's to the Tuning.
regards Jacko
regards Jacko
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "
- Charles Darwin
- Charles Darwin
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Re: vanes and recurves.
Could I point out that bigbob does not have a problem of any kind with his new arrows? He told us that in his first post. What exactly is this debate about??? Congratulate him on his success and move on.
Dennis La Varénne
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
Re: vanes and recurves.
Bob states how well the carbon arrows with 'VANES' flew out of his bow, and also states how he expected some 'kick' as they passed the shelf. The topic name is 'vanes and recurves.' and I have seen nothing out of topic throughout the thread. It seems as if you wish to eliminate constructive talk Dennis.Dennis La Varenne wrote:Could I point out that bigbob does not have a problem of any kind with his new arrows? He told us that in his first post. What exactly is this debate about??? Congratulate him on his success and move on.
The talk about the archer's paradox being able to eliminate the kick of a vane is interesting as I have always assumed some 'kick' was assured. Thanks for the useful comments/information.
Scuzz
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Re: vanes and recurves.
Skuzz,
As an administrator of this site, if I wanted to shut down 'constructive' talk here I could simply have locked the topic. I did not. All the constructive talk has been gone over in other threads ad infinitum and repeatedly as it tends to do on Ozbow.
Personally, I have not had any problems with the very few synthvanes I have tried in the past either. But so what????
And, I have never had to 'tune' any bow I have ever shot either and still cannot see any reason for it. I have never had a bow which shot badly including very many of my collection of over 200 bows from before the fibreglass period. They shoot either faster or slower than each other, but never badly. All arrows come out straight and fly like darts unless I pluck the string or other bad loose problems. But it is never the fault of the bow or the arrows.
Why people have all these problems is beyond me. 'Tuning' a bow was never spoken of in the day of wood bows in all the writings in my fairly extensive archery library. If you look through the publications I have listed at the end of the most recent Ozbow Glossary, you will see a list of most of those books I have.
Tuning bows seems to be a very modern invention due to causes of which I am unaware but strongly suggest that it is an archer problem and not an equipment problem unless of course that manufacturers are making inferior products.
As an administrator of this site, if I wanted to shut down 'constructive' talk here I could simply have locked the topic. I did not. All the constructive talk has been gone over in other threads ad infinitum and repeatedly as it tends to do on Ozbow.
Personally, I have not had any problems with the very few synthvanes I have tried in the past either. But so what????
And, I have never had to 'tune' any bow I have ever shot either and still cannot see any reason for it. I have never had a bow which shot badly including very many of my collection of over 200 bows from before the fibreglass period. They shoot either faster or slower than each other, but never badly. All arrows come out straight and fly like darts unless I pluck the string or other bad loose problems. But it is never the fault of the bow or the arrows.
Why people have all these problems is beyond me. 'Tuning' a bow was never spoken of in the day of wood bows in all the writings in my fairly extensive archery library. If you look through the publications I have listed at the end of the most recent Ozbow Glossary, you will see a list of most of those books I have.
Tuning bows seems to be a very modern invention due to causes of which I am unaware but strongly suggest that it is an archer problem and not an equipment problem unless of course that manufacturers are making inferior products.
Dennis La Varénne
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
Re: vanes and recurves.
Morning Scuzz.
Over most of the last decade this has been a friendly all encompassing Traditional Forum. There have been some strong debates but it has generally remained in a polite and respectful manner.
However. in the last six months it has taken a new significant turn.
As an Example after the comments regarding Trad Shoots I just posted my comment on Archery Forum. http://www.archery-forum.com/showthread ... Trad-Shoot That way I make a small effort not to upset Admin.
I also recommend you start a list of Topics that will cause issues, the following appear to touch raw nerves - anything to do with rules, anything to do with bows post the introduction of the compound bow, anything to do with Trad Shoots....... Develop your own list. Have a nice day.
You are correct.scuzz wrote:... The topic name is 'vanes and recurves.' and I have seen nothing out of topic throughout the thread. It seems as if you wish to eliminate constructive talk Dennis. ...
Over most of the last decade this has been a friendly all encompassing Traditional Forum. There have been some strong debates but it has generally remained in a polite and respectful manner.
However. in the last six months it has taken a new significant turn.
My suggestion, once again, is to accept the situation - it is a privately owned site - and if you want to raise questions, comments, etc. on what appear to be topics that are frowned upon that you do so on another more welcoming Forum. e.g. Trad Talk, Tradgang , Archery Forum. Or just leave as some people have done.Dennis La Varenne wrote:... there are no hyssy fits here. There are debates, even if they are sometimes heated and you have a right to express your opinion like all of us..../quote]
Whilst this is the view that has been expressed as you have experienced that does not reflect reality.
Discussion about 'Trad Shoots' and the 'Rules they operate under has become a topic to be raised at running the risk of the displeasure of one of the Administrators, Dennis. Similarly it now appears that if the subject has been discussed commented on in the past it is forbidden.
And when you offered a comment you were jumped on.Dennis La Varenne wrote:... What exactly is this debate about??? Congratulate him on his success and move on.
Dennis La Varenne wrote:... All the constructive talk has been gone over in other threads ad infinitum ...
As an Example after the comments regarding Trad Shoots I just posted my comment on Archery Forum. http://www.archery-forum.com/showthread ... Trad-Shoot That way I make a small effort not to upset Admin.
I also recommend you start a list of Topics that will cause issues, the following appear to touch raw nerves - anything to do with rules, anything to do with bows post the introduction of the compound bow, anything to do with Trad Shoots....... Develop your own list. Have a nice day.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
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Re: vanes and recurves.
And it still is polite and respectful Grahame. It is only your take on the episode which is putting that light on it.Over most of the last decade this has been a friendly all encompassing Traditional Forum. There have been some strong debates but it has generally remained in a polite and respectful manner.
You are also mistaken about Ozbow being an all encompassing Traditional Forum. So long as Jeff and I have been administrators it has always been a forum dedicated to the preservation of pre-compound archery and nothing else. We have never pretended to be otherwise despite the perpetual endeavours of members trying to undermine that position by trying to turn into into a defacto ABA, 3DAAA, AA or other target oriented forum.
My little comment on the the topic is little more than a small piqued molehill at a subject which is boringly and endlessly repreated which you seem to be turning into an Everest of hostility. You offered the following comment to Scuzz -
You have gone to a great deal of trouble to trawl through the site to scratch up whatever you can to support your position and noted nothing at all where I have provided pages and pages of assistance to people asking questions.And when you offered a comment you were jumped on.
So do please explain the difference between a reply in disagreement and ‘being jumped on’. I thought my little two sentence comment would not even be noticed let alone bothered with. So, it seems that from your position, ANY comment in disagreeing reply can be taken as ‘jumpin on’ or impolite or disrespectful. You do have thin skin.
You also wrote -
Well, you might consider justifying this bit. Did I or anyone prevent Scuzz having his say if he wanted to? Did I stop you for instance from your little outburst? Hardly. But I will not sit idly by and accept what is patently wrong and injurious to the purpose of Ozbow from anybody.Whilst this is the view that has been expressed as you have experienced that does not reflect reality.
If you find Ozbow so offensive and intolerable in its insistence on adhering to a specific policy, there are other sites you can remove yourself to as you advise others have done. Nobody has ever been prevented from having their say on this forum, including yourself or Scuzz or anybody else unless they became personally attacking.
If, as you suggest, you get a better run elsewhere, then take your own advice.
The only thing that I can see from the above is that people’s skins are getting thinner and thinner and fragile enough that a differing opinion strongly put is now childishly hurtful. Nobody’s opinion including my own is sacrosanct against counter-opinion.
You seem to have a problem with that.
Dennis La Varénne
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
Re: vanes and recurves.
Morning Dennis.
One does not need to 'trawl' the Forum as you claim, all people need do is observe what is happening and I an not alone.
From my viewpoint the only "skin" that seems to be getting thinner is yours otherwise you would not appear so act in such a different/'difficult'/strange manner.Dennis La Varenne wrote:... The only thing that I can see from the above is that people’s skins are getting thinner and thinner and fragile enough that a differing opinion strongly put is now childishly hurtful. Nobody’s opinion including my own is sacrosanct against counter-opinion. ....
One does not need to 'trawl' the Forum as you claim, all people need do is observe what is happening and I an not alone.
Mick Smith wrote:.... There have been some recent events in which I felt there was a distinct push to move away from the trad shoot aspect of traditional archery by some of our admin people. ....
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.
"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.
- Chase N. Nocks
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- Location: Brisbane, Australia
Re: vanes and recurves.
Hi Bob,
Here is a post I started many moons ago about low profile vanes supposedly designed to be shot off the shelf.
http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13431
Here is a post I started many moons ago about low profile vanes supposedly designed to be shot off the shelf.
http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=13431
G'day all,
Wondering if anyone has any experience with some of the new low profile vanes designed to be shot off the shelf.
http://www.bohning.com/store/impulse-4-vanes.html
http://www.flexfletch.com/products/vanes/
http://www.flexfletch.com/wp-content/up ... Blu-SM.jpg
I know a few guys carry vaned arrows for wet weather etc. And have no problems if shooting cock feather in.
Interesting.
Cheers
Troy
I am an Archer. I am not a traditional archer, bowhunter, compound shooter or target archer.....I am an Archer
"Shooting the Stickbow"
....enforced by the "whistling grey-goose wing."
"The Witchery of Archery"
"Shooting the Stickbow"
....enforced by the "whistling grey-goose wing."
"The Witchery of Archery"
Re: vanes and recurves.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
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Re: vanes and recurves.
Et tu Grahame.
Dennis La Varénne
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.
Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.
QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8
What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?
HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.