Rules for Primitive Bow/Selfbow in Traditional archery event

[Brumbies Country]

I recently shot at the Wiseman's Ferry trad shoot and enjoyed it tremendously. I'm now a bit keen to shoot more of these trad events. I actually shot the Wiseman's Ferry event with a low poundage flatbow due to a niggling shoulder but I'd prefer normally to shoot in the primitive class. What's included in the primitive division? An ELB would obviously make it as would a selfbow. I presume any type of bow which you could prove was primitive in origin would be OK? Would I be right in presuming it couldn't have an arrow shelf?

Simon

[longbow steve]

I dont think there are rules enforced. I think a bow of natural materials without a shelf should be competing as a selfbow. However I think a bow with a shelf made of natural materials could also be shot and would perform fairly similarly to a selfbow(example being the bow yourself and Kevin purchased).
I think we function well with out rules at these events and allow shooters to self regulate. Example being Guy Layton shooting an all wood bow and winning overall longbow and entering the Longbow division. Steve

[Brumbies Country]

Thanks Steve

Within the spirit of trad archery competitions I think that is great that there is that sort of attitude to the rules. I must admit to wondering about the bows Kevin and I got and how they'd go in a primitive division. I'm wrapped in mine, but I will take the shelves off it to meet ABA Historic bow rules, even though the existing shelves are so small that I reckon I'm shooting off my fingers most of the time .

Simon

[GrahameA]

Hi Simon.

There are times when the heavens move in synchronicity.

The other day Daryl and I were musing over the question where JimBows would sit in the present loose set of rules. the current divisions generally seem to be : Selfbows, Longbows and Recurves. They are not a selfbow as they are laminated. That throws them into the Longbow category. My argument was that people allow bows made from a joined billet to shoot in the Selfbow division as well as backed bows, is a simple laminated bow any different?

Now before anyone rushes in with an answer if you are aware of the long, very long, discussion on this topic go right ahead if not please do a bit a background reading. http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9672

My opinion - change the classification/divisions to include simple laminated bows. So in the current Selfbow division you could shoot bows that are laminated from timber - no fibreglass or carbon fibre. Just good old wood.

This should be good for about three days of varying views. ROFL.

***

Within the spirit of trad archery competitions I think that is great that there is that sort of attitude to the rules. I must admit to wondering about the bows Kevin and I got and how they'd go in a primitive division. I'm wrapped in mine, but I will take the shelves off it to meet ABA Historic bow rules, even though the existing shelves are so small that I reckon I'm shooting off my fingers most of the time .

Seeking a Historic bow. It is not a Bhutanese Bow, however it is very similar to the Japanese laminated bows and could probably be presented as such once the shelf was removed. Why not look at what was used in places like Korea, Cambodia, the Phillipines, Vietnam or do the big jump to India. I would be reasonably certain that cultures other Japna and China would have simply laminated Bamboo sections.

If you shot them in the Selfbow division I would have nil issues - however that is only my opinion. Then again I do not think you would get much opposition. If all seems okay then I should will be joining you with an all timber laminated recurve next year.

I could shoot my current Recurved Selfbow but I want to build a Saracen style of bow. Just to have something different.

[greybeard]

Hi Simon,

Grahame A, Perry Jackson and myself formulated some rules/guidelines to try at trad shoots.

Some complained about the proposed rules and that is all they did, others contributed to help set up a frame work to try at a couple of trad shoots.

The rules appeared to be well accepted [no complaints].

These rules were not set in concrete and above all THAT COMMONSENCE PREVAIL.

Traditional Shoot Rules.doc

(44.5 KiB) Downloaded 123 times

Daryl.

[longbowinfected]

And Rob Mckenzie said he'd use them straight away and did to a large degree. There are really only 6 to 8 guys likely to be the winner. The rest just get stuck into each other shot by shot in a friendly way. Not much point being negative about rules when everyone is positive about the fun aspects. The cream floats to the top no matter which bows they shoot.

Kev

[Brumbies Country]

Thanks Daryl

Those rules re traditional/primitive are just what I was after. They read exactly the way I reckon commonsense should dictate.

Simon

[Len]

I think greybeards rules are pretty much spot on but would just like to add that I think in the historical/primitive/self bow division the arrows used should also be historicaly correct in matching the bow used.

[GrahameA]

Hi Simon.

So there you go - you are in. It seems a long time ago when that stuff was done.

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Grahame

I wrote a reply and the confounded thing appears to have disappeared in to the ether. I've been thinking about this for a few days so inded fortuitous that you and Daryl have also discussed it .

Re the bamboo connection I've done alot of internet searching last few days re historical use of bamboo and Asian bows. The vast majority turned out to be bamboo, horn, sinew composites (except for the Yumi) until you go back to the Guptas in India. The average infantryman had a bamboo bow, mostly longbows but some recurves. Steel bows were also about but seemingly confined to the ruling classes. It was hypothesized that the composites were prone to warping/twisting in humid conditions, whereas bamboo was stable.

You'd have to wonder if you went back far enough that most of Asia might have started with a bamboo bow to which horn and sinew were added as history progressed, but there is no documentation to that effect.

Simon

[GrahameA]

Hi Simon.

re JimBows. Try Southern Indian bows, Chinese bows. Look around for something on Sanmaiuchi bows.
http://books.google.com/books?id=ZFf9e ... ow&f=false

Check out the bow - it even bends like the JimBows.http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_hartman_0301.htm

Scroll down almost at the bottom http://www.atarn.org/letters/letter_sum ... tm#longbow

Bhutanese bow - note the handle section http://www.daylife.com/photo/02aff60b1HcKv

[greybeard]

Simon,

The traditional rules document that I posted has been taken up in part or full by some clubs for their traditional shoots. Other clubs that I may be unaware of may have done the same.

When attending traditional shoots it may pay to check their rules prior to the shoot.

Main stream archery organizations will have their own rules which I believe are set in concrete.

I think greybeards rules are pretty much spot on but would just like to add that I think in the historical/primitive/self bow division the arrows used should also be historicaly correct in matching the bow used.

Len,

I agree with you.

I get the impression that a number of archers won’t go the extra distance to hand craft or pay someone else to make arrows that are in keeping with the particular style/period of bow.

Encouragement to do so is possibly better than a mandate. Perhaps extra points could be awarded for using period arrows.

Daryl.

[GrahameA]

Morning All.

Main stream archery organizations will have their own rules which I believe are set in concrete.

Archery Australia does not have any rules regarding Trad' Equipment. They have some rules for "Longbows". They are not Trad' Rules.

I think greybeards rules are pretty much spot on but would just like to add that I think in the historical/primitive/self bow division the arrows used should also be historicaly correct in matching the bow used.

Whilst that suggestion has merit it may not be desirable. I am all in favour of promoting more appropriate arrows however sometimes things can become difficult. Then again the organising body always has the prerogative to set what conditions they wish.

Encouragement to do so is possibly better than a mandate.

I concur. Making things mandatory is not a good way to go far better to encourage people, and people who are interested will eventually do so. Whilst I am ambivalent regarding plastic nocks vs. self nocks vs. horn nocks vs. whatever I still prefer to fit plastic nocks - they simply save some arrows.

[Brumbies Country]

Thanks Grahame

I thought I'd been pretty thorough in my search but you've uncovered some very useful material that I didn't find and re documentation justifying an Historic bow in terms of meeting the IFAA/ABA rules, outside of an ELB, a selfbow broadly of the American Indian type, or a truly composite Asian bow (not containing fibreglass), I think you need all the supporting documentation you can get.

I like Len's concept of period relevant arrows, but itmay be a bridge too far foe quite a few.

Simon

[GrahameA]

Hi Simon.

I thought I'd been pretty thorough in my search but you've uncovered some very useful material that I didn't find and re documentation justifying an Historic bow in terms of meeting the IFAA/ABA rules, outside of an ELB, a selfbow broadly of the American Indian type, or a truly composite Asian bow (not containing fibreglass), I think you need all the supporting documentation you can get.

Once you remove the shelf it is just like a Sanmaiuchi. I would go wit that and as much pictorial stuff you could find - especially of versions where the bow is symmetrical - it will take a bit trawling though. Issue resolved.

[greybeard]

Hi Simon,

If you haven’t done so already try the following link.

One section refers to composite bows before the introduction of static tips. There are numerous links within this topic which may yield evidence to support the classification of your JimBow.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_bow#Chinese_bow


Daryl.

[Brumbies Country]

Thanks again Daryl and Grahame

I am really grateful for the links you have given me this. It is revealing just how much information there is out there on Asian bows.

Simon