Question for you hog hunters.

[Dodger]

I have a dozen 2317 alloy shafts heading my way but after placing the order I have been wondering if I have gone overboard.

The bow I plan to use these arrows from draws 60# @ 28" and will be drawn to 29".

Playing with Stu's calculator for BOP lengths 29.75" and 30" and a 250 and 255 grain pile, respectively, I get the following figures:

Arrow weight: 729 and 731 grains.
Specific weight: 11.5 and 11.5 gpp.
FOC: 16.8 and 17.1%

Now my question is, are the above mentioned figures desireable or not?

Thanks.

Dodger

P.S.: Also, what arrow set-ups are you guys using for hogs? Arrow weight, specific weight, FOC, etc.

[Stickbow Hunter]

I shoot 59# and my hunting arras are 725 - 750 grains with a 190 grain head and I think about 11% FOC. They work fine for me.

Jeff

[UPTHETOP]

Dodg your specs look spot on for pigs. 10-12GPP is about the norm for big pigs especially boars.
FOC could be a little more around the 20% mark usually better for penatration. This can be obtained by using heavier inserts, or weighted addapters.
With your figures you should be pulling around the 63lb mark out of that bow which should handle a 650-750grn shaft.
Just remember to practice with the set up first as you will notice a fast drop in arrow flight Due to the heavier Foc weight.
But it all depends on the distance your shooting your pigs at. I like to get in under the 15 metre mark which allows still strait arrow flight for that weight shaft any futher and they start to drop pretty fast.

I only use a 55lb bow for pigs and the arrow weight is around the 600-650 mark has worked well for me over the years.

Will be interesting to see what others think on the subject as Im no expert thats for shore.

Cheers Wayno

[Benny Nganabbarru]

You'll be fine with that set-up. Go for it!

[Dodger]

Jeff, you have been blasting through or bringing down those hogs with just 11% FOC? One reason for ordering the 2317, rather than use the 2117s I have at hand, was to increase the FOC.

Wayno, a real loopy trajectory is precisely what I was afraid off but I suppose once learned I should be fine. Since it's going to be a 10# jump in draw weight for me, I doubt I would be using that bow afield for a month or two.

Ben, I know you use heavy arrows but your bows aren't light weights either.

Thanks guys.

[Dodger]

Another question...I'll most probably end up using Stos broadheads eventually but will Ribteks do for the interim? I was told that the steel they are made off is a bit soft. The Rockwell hardness wasn't mentioned though.

Thanks.

[bear74]

those figures look pretty good mate, as for ribbies they are excellent heads to use. I used them right up until 5 years ago when I wandered off track with other heads but I am now shooting the 190gr ribbies exclusively again if that counts for anything. I know they are very popular among topend hog hunters who know their stuff!

[Dodger]

Ribbies it is then. Thanks, Bear.

[Benny Nganabbarru]

I have killed a fair bit of game with a similar set-up to you, including a buffalo and some big horses (wild) - back before we knew anything about FOC. And, with timber arrows, low FOC is still the norm, and still punches through. I don't deny the Good Doctor's findings, but for most game, the old-fashioned stuff still works fine.

[Dodger]

Ben, thanks for clearing that. In all fairness to Dr. Ashby, he did say (if I recall correctly) that arrow weight trumps FOC when it comes to breaching bone. However, I had absolutely no idea that 11% FOC from a heavy'ish shaft can get the job done efficiently.
Cheers!

[Stickbow Hunter]

Dodger,

For years the ideal balance point for an arrow was stated as being from 7 per cent to 9 per cent ahead of the exact middle including the head and nock. Note the words in bold; this is IMO the correct and only way to get the FOC of an arrow. The AMO method used today (even by Ed Ashby) will not give you the FOC of an arrow just a certain number. The reason for this is they only measure to the end of the shaft and do not include the point length.

To get the true FOC of an arrow you must include the full length of the arrow including the nock and point as their weights will determine where the arrow balances. An arrow with say 150 grain point that is only 25mm long will not balance the same as if the arrow had a 150 grain point that was 75mm long. Also adding to the mix, with alloys and carbons people are loading up the weight of the arrow by inserting weights at the point end of the shaft. The balance point of an arrow weighted like that will balance differently to one with the same all up weight at the front but with the weight in the broadhead alone.

The way I, and many others, measure the FOC will give you a lower percentage reading but it will be the correct percentage and the true FOC of any given arrow.

Jeff

[wishsong]

but your set up sounds good to go
I don't deny Ashby is likely on the money when it comes to thick skinned large game like Cape Buff ,Asiatic water buff etc ... most likely even deer and goats .
I do know that I have killed a fair number of animals with archery tackle ... in the last ten years pretty exclusively with Hill style bows , slow they may be , and wooden arrows with Ribteks heads . I only shoot about 52# and have never lost an animal due to bow poundage .
It is some years since I have had a crack at those bigger Northern pigs ... but aside from a Buffalo here in Oz there isn't an animal wouldn;t hesitate to hunt and shoot with my current tackle .

Heavy arrows are better than light ones but more important to me is shot placement and sharp broadheads.

[Dodger]

Jeff,

I calculate FOC the same way as you, with the exception that I measure from the throat of the nock to the end of the pile. I did not even know that there was another method. I wonder which method Stu Miller is using in his calculator.

Thanks.

Dodger

[Dodger]

Wishsong,

After reading your reply and many others, I am wondering why I went up in draw weight. Wish I had asked these questions earlier as it would have saved me a bunch on new shafts, broadheads, points, etc.

Anyway, now that I am committed to a 60 #er (63 # at my draw length), I may as well make the best of it.

Cheers.

[Stickbow Hunter]

If you can handle the extra draw weight mate there are no negatives when it comes to hunting IMO. Those extra few pounds of draw weight (more penetration) can come in handy at times.

Jeff

[wishsong]

Dodger ...
Mate , if you can pull that extra weight , more power to ya ! Flatter trajectory and bigger punch is always good !

[Dodger]

If you can handle the extra draw weight mate...

Mate , if you can pull that extra weight...

You two are the most encouring chaps I have come across.

[Keith Lee]

Good-day Dodger i only use a 47lb bow but my arrows are 600 to 700 grains with 160 ribbies and i have had no trouble with them.

[Dodger]

G'day Keith!

Not much I can say as I am still in a state of

Cheers!

P.S.: Have ordered a dozen Ribbies from Mark at Tradbits, so that's what I will be using as well. 125s + 125gr. steel screw-in adapter.

[Brett Finger]

Good-day Dodger i only use a 47lb bow but my arrows are 600 to 700 grains with 160 ribbies and i have had no trouble with them.

..
but u hunt from 5 foot !!!
Bretto...

[slvrslngr]

Tuning is more important than FOC. As long as your broadheads are shaving sharp, the arrows fly perfectly, and you put the combo into the lungs/heart, you will kill any pig that walks on the planet.

[Budza]

Hi Dodger,

I recently read your enquiry regarding choosing the correct arrow setup, the following information may be of interest to you. Two of the most important things one wants from an arrow when hunting are good flight and penetration. FOC will assist in both these areas however, a precise measurement is not critical, all we require is a relative reference point, bowhunters require a fairly high FOC due to several factors that can affect arrow flight. The most important requirement is Momentum particularly for larger animals.

In Zimbabwe a minimum requirement was established for different animals by Parks and Wild life, this was created to assist safari operators. They were as follows:-

Species Momentum

Small Game
Duiker 0.3 slug/fps

Medium Game
Up to Nyala 0.35 slug/fps

Medium to large Game
Up to Eland 0.4 slug/fps

Buffalo 0.45 slug/fps

This is how you work out the momentum (slug/fps)of your arrow: -

Arrow Weight (grains) x Velocity (feet per second)

------------------------------------------------ = slug/fps

7000 x 32

For example my arrow weighs 635 grains and will leave my longbow at 150 fps using the formula above the momentum will = 0.43 slug/fps more than enough for pigs, you would only require 0.35 slug/sec. My FOC is 18% and my arrows seem to have great flight (2117 and 160 grain broadhead).

I trust this will help.

[roscoe]

Dodger,
I would go with the 2219 shafts myself and use a 100-125grain broadhead and one piece glue in adapters 3x5" shield cut feathers. I find most broadheads are designed with a 11/32" arrow in mind and seam to give better penetration then thicker shafts. using stu millers calculator this gives 619 grains 29.5" shaft at about 180fps with modern recurve...roscoe

[Dodger]

Thanks a lot for the additional replies.

Budza, since I am done with bare shaft tuning, your reply prompted me to set up the chrono and using the same arrow I get an average velocity of 147.84 ft./sec. but with the chrono at 9 yards from me. The arrow weighs 729 grains and using your formula I get 0.48114 slug-feet/sec. According to your table, which I recall seeing in the past but had forgotten about, I am just past the minimum threshold for buffalo! Incidentally, I am sorry about you having to move away from Zim but I greatly enjoy reading your posts.

Roscoe, I'll play with the 2219s on Stu's and see what I get.

Thanks guys.

[Dodger]

Even though this is a Hill style longbow, isn't 148 ft./sec. a tad slow?
I ask because, Howard Hill Archery, in their booklet, claim a minimum speed of 115 ft./sec. + the draw weight, though it does not state what grain per pound arrow is used. Does anyone know what GPP the above thumrule is based on?
For whatever it's worth, I am currently using a 9-strand BCY 450+ Flemish twist string and the pic below is indicative of the bare shaft tune from 15 yards.

Thanks.

[g_r]

If youre right handed, it looks a bit stiff to me.
But youre nearly done id say. Maybe a bit more point weight or a bit thicker strike plate.

[wishsong]

I reckon those arrows would be way over spined for a Bama longbow . I'd try 2117 . Nate's bows are not cut to center are they ?

Also , not that I have ever worried about chrony speed , but i'd shoot closer to the machine

[Dodger]

Guys I goofed. Checked my draw length and I am not drawing to 29" yet. It's a 10.5# jump and the same thing had happened when I went from a 40# Sage to a 50# Bear Montana. I used to think my draw length was 27" until recently when I screwed on a broadhead and the back of the BH hit my finger. Checked my draw length on the kids' bow and it was 29". With the Bama, I am currently drawing 28.25" and it may take a few more weeks before it settles at 29".

Axel, I'll play with the strike plate or point weight if and when needed.

Wishsong, I have some 2117 but did not use them as I wanted a higher FOC. No, Nate's bows are not cut to centre. Will shoot from one yard this evening or tomorrow and report. Ditto when I get back to my 29" draw.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Regards.

Dodger

[Rock Steady]

Wishsong, I have some 2117 but did not use them as I wanted a higher FOC.

Correct spine is probably more important then FOC, if your arrow is not hitting the target squarely then you can waste some of the effect of the higher FOC. This means even though you have great FOC you could still have poor penetration.