Smoothness.

[GrahameA]

Morning Fanto.

I ended up doing a separate post.

.... its not as "smooth" (wish there was a better word) as a straight laid bow. ....

I was thinking about your comment above.

From my point of view. "What is smooth when people are referring to bows". i.e. The term "Smooth" needs to be defined so everyone is talk about the same think when it is refereed to. As well "Smoothness" needs to be defined so that the degree of smooth can be measured.

I have seen examples where "smooth" is expressed as the First Derivative of "Draw-Force Curve".

With the below it is important to critically read what is said.

FirstDerivativeBorderHEX5comparedtoPSEProElite.jpg (86.31 KiB) Viewed 3818 times

e.g. Refer this Post http://www.archeryinterchange.com/f127/ ... ndex2.html You probably need to read the whole post to make sense of it it.

Extra information.
http://www.archeryinterchange.com/f127/ ... ze-188811/
http://www.archeryinterchange.com/f127/ ... out-36909/ http://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~archery/w ... e-Bows.pdfRead Notes on Smoothness

Similarly there is probably a need to define "Shock" when bows are shot and once again define how to measure it - although I perceive that might be a little harder than for "Smooth".

It may make a topic for a separate post.

[Stickbow Hunter]

In this thread people have a bit to say about smoothness also. http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.p ... th+drawing

Jeff

[greybeard]

Grahame,

I had a play around with the inch/pounds increments from the graph that you posted and came up with the following result.

The figures may be slightly off because it was difficult to allocate exact poundage for each red square.

Border Hex 5 Chart.jpg (126.3 KiB) Viewed 3780 times

Bearing this in mind I think the curve is excellent when you look at the curve above the line from the 19 inch plot point. For the purpose of the exercise I used a nine inch brace height.

Border Hex 5 Graph.jpg (108.47 KiB) Viewed 3780 times

Although I incorporated static tips in my two previous recurves carrying out this simple exercise and watching the videos has given me ideas on how to improve my recurve limb design.

I wonder if Border includes industrial rated ear muffs with their bows.

Daryl.

From Border bows;

“This is the difference in Static recurves, and working recurves. And its acheived my way of limb core taper.
this is where you can give smoothness away, or keep it.
Static recurves hold their form better, but to do so, you hold thicker tips (higher mass)
Working recurves can proove to be a waste of time. in that they just cave in and give away their advantage... this is because the bow maker tried to save too much mass in the outer reaches of the limb.
Longbows call this Whippy tipped.”

[GrahameA]

Hi Daryl.

I had a play around with the inch/pounds increments from the graph that you posted and came up with the following result ....

I find it interesting to read stuff that Sid talks about regarding "Border Bows" even if I do not always agree with it. He unlike most manufacturers presents strong arguments as to why his products perform the way they do.

... I wonder if Border includes industrial rated ear muffs with their bows. ....

I doubt it and do not expect they are are required.

I had the pleasure to shoot a bow with Border limbs today. It was a pleasant experience however, I am not a good enough archer to notice any perceptible difference between them and the Hoyt/Sebastian Flute/Yamaha/Nishizawa/Samick limbs I use on a more regular basis.

[Fanto]

Grahame this surely explains the sensation you get in comparing the slynx with for example a longer, less reflexed and deflexed bow. I'll do a first derivative curve so we can see.

[greybeard]

Hi Daryl.

... I wonder if Border includes industrial rated ear muffs with their bows. ....

I doubt it and do not expect they are are required.

They must have had the recording level at max when they shot the video.

Daryl.

[Fanto]

here is the first derivitave curve on the peregrine which is the 62" cousin of the 60" slynx

thoughts?

[daniel boon]

Daryl, my HEX6's are pretty quiet with just 2 wool puffs (12gr each) and 10gr pp GT's, with my AD Hammerheads about 12gr pp they are really quiet. Tried them out with some arrows a bit over 8gr pp, they were smoking fast but laud. But then all my bows are with light arrows. And some target guys shoot them lighter than that.
Cheers Dan

[greybeard]

From Archery Interchange UK. [comments on the Zeta]

"Everything about this bow makes it a winner, fast, beautiful, very well made and easier to shoot than most AFB's on the market but end of the day it comes down to personal feel.

The Zeta has served me well and love everything about it, Katrin my better half shoots a Border she's won 3 world and 3 European IFAA titles with that Griffon and when I tried the Bow it felt horrible to me, as does the Blackbrook Zeta to her.

Think end of the day if the bow feels good in the hand it will shoot well for you."

Daryl.

[GrahameA]

Hi Daryl.

From Archery Interchange UK. [comments on the Zeta]

If people are interested in investing some time in learning about bows in general and learning a bit more about Zetas in particular then have a read : http://www.archeryinterchange.com/searc ... id=1061342 If that does not work just do a search for zeta on that forum. There should be enough to keep you busy for a few hours of reading.

However, remember are there many comments that are opinions - read critically.

[greybeard]

From Steve Morley,

"The difference in feel and performance between a cheap off the peg bow and a custom bow like Zeta is huge BUT these Bows are high performance tourney Bows and demand very good shooting technique from it's owner to get the best out of them, otherwise all you will get is a very fast and sometimes spectacular miss."

[GrahameA]

Hi Daryl.

"The difference in feel and performance between a cheap off the peg bow and a custom bow like Zeta is huge BUT these Bows are high performance tourney Bows and demand very good shooting technique from it's owner to get the best out of them, otherwise all you will get is a very fast and sometimes spectacular miss."

People who have read "Hunting the Hard Way" will note that similar comments were expressed by Howard Hill. As with most machines the more "performance outcome" they are the higher the skill level required of the operator and the faster things will go wrong if they are not operated at that skill level.

As an example High Performance motor vehicles are fitted with computer controlled "Launch Control" to get them off the line as people, aka drivers, struggle. High Performance vehicles can also be not the most pleasant vehicles to drive around town.

Then again a bit of training/coaching/work can do wonders in raising ones skill level.

A fast miss is still just a miss.

[GrahameA]

Hi Fanto.

here is the first derivitave curve on the peregrine which is the 62" cousin of the 60" slynx

thoughts?

There are no sudden points where the rate changes once you have draw it a bit. Personally, I would probably not like the bow as I have a preference for that do not load up quickly at the start of the draw - it is just preference I have. (And probably is an indication why I prefer/like flat laid bows.)