Bowyer / Bowmaker - Whats the differance?

[Chase N. Nocks]

Same question can be fairly asked of any other indentured / apprenticeship based trade. None the less the qualifications where laid down 700 odd years ago by the authorities of the day and they should be respected as a part of archery history

regards Jacko

Yes, but your illuminating only one era, one historical line of archery history. Like the thinking that only English Longbows can be called Longbows. (add smiley of tongue being poked )

[Steven J]

The only reason for there being no further need to learn is death.

Craig, I think that there will be a great many people that learn a whole lot from their experience in death, but that is a conversation for another forum.

It is my hope that I learn something for everyday that I am given on this Earth.

Probably the biggest thing that I have learnt from building bows is not to give up when you make a mistake. The customer doesn't care that you made a mistake they just want their bow so you bite your lip and keep going. I could not follow through with the hard tasks with the same tenacity that I can now. I have learnt that crying about it just makes your eyes all foggy so you can't start laying out the next bow accurately.

I agree that becoming a member of a Guild or Society simply by means of a conversation, or even a presentation of a portfolio of work weakens the standing of such an organisation.

Steve

[Chase N. Nocks]

Another scenario, last year I ran fourteen bow making workshops. The clients came from a diverse background and had never made a bow [except maybe as a child when they found a stick and a bit of string].

Under my guidance the clients processed all the materials, laid up the bow, did all the shaping, added the tip overlays and filed the string nocks, final sanding and applied the clear finish.

Although they walked out of the workshop with a well made durable bow would you call them a bowyer?


Daryl.

No, but they are richer, well done.

[Chase N. Nocks]

Selfbows can still give me grief but I shoot in the bow with gradual increases in draw length and make adjustments as I go rather than chasing the tiller all over the tiller board. Tillering strings do not reflect the true tiller of the bow, the braced bow is more accurate.


Daryl.

Daryl, I have made only 1 sad labourous attempt at a self bow so have no experience therefore my kudo's have limited value. But this technique you mention here seems to me to be very well thought out and probably very close to primative technique rather than production line technique.

Was Ishi a Master Bowyer? Maybe not amongst his tribe or nation, but in comapasion to the white fellas he introduced very likely. Consider another fact related to some of the points Perry made about survival times. There are times that a Master Bowyer will NOT produce the finest pieces..the tribe is two bows down and the buffalo are just a day away. Cheif says "don't get fancy, get functional".

[perry]

Illuminating one example Troy, fair point yes I could have presented this better, but your a stirring sod This is simply a common point of interest for many of the English longbow buffs out their, many folks are just a little blinkered to the ELB. One or too folks have cast wider afield. I'm a prehistoric flatbow fan myself something draws me to them , being a Caveman may have something to do it

There is ample evidence around the world of continuous lines Master Bowyers. I ask again do we dishounour their legacy by claiming to be Bowyers not Bowmakers. It was suggested earlier Bowmaking is at best a semi skilled job, tell this to a Master Bowyer that can trace his linage back hundreds of years.

As Daryl's link suggested, the middle east. Without to much more imagination their is unbroken lines that continue to this day in Japan and China for example. Any taker's

regards Jacko

[perry]

Perry,

By "gives lie to your assertion" I was not suggesting you were telling lies.

You are asserting that one needs to have served 7 years under a master bowyer before you can be regarded as a bowyer, however you also say your friend has been accepted as one when he did not do a seven year apprenticeship but merely talked to them, the two things cannot both be true. The acceptance of your friend into the society proves you do not need to have had a seven year apprenticeship, one gives lie to the other.

Grahame,

I am aware that the craft guild I referred to was formed relatively recently, however they are, I believe, the only organisation in the UK that claims to oversee bowyery, the Worshipful Company of Bowers defers to them in such matters.

Craig.

Craig for the 2nd time I ask you read my post - It say's he was accepted as a BOWMAKER not a bowyer. They have registered Bowyers and seperately registed BOWMAKERS. I will also point out I am not a wiz at communicating over a key board and am not an award winning novelist. If my communication is not clear or does not ring true, don't assume please ask me for clarrification via PM or via the thread.

I see now that the way I went about posting this by listing one example was asking for SOME folks not to look beyond the original link and assume it was the whole basis of what I am trying to illustrate. I'll file this post to experience and not repeat it.

In the light of my memory being what it is perhaps a little more info I have just now recalled may help end your confusioin. After this chat in England he was not simply accepted into the fold he had to supply evidence of his expertise and knowledge which he did with business records, photographs and what ever other means he was asked to do so over a period. Remember we are talking about an Australian on holiday making contact and then having to communicate from Australia back to England add infinitum with out the benefit of a computer for emails or bottomless funds.

I said earlier this was years ago and I have not been able to reach my mate to confirm details I have a fuzzy memory on. I will not guess at details of this nature.

I stated last post their is evidence of long continued Master Bowyer lines in Japan and China, does someone else want to contribute information on these please

regards Jacko

[perry]

The only reason for there being no further need to learn is death.

Craig, I think that there will be a great many people that learn a whole lot from their experience in death, but that is a conversation for another forum.

It is my hope that I learn something for everyday that I am given on this Earth.

Probably the biggest thing that I have learnt from building bows is not to give up when you make a mistake. The customer doesn't care that you made a mistake they just want their bow so you bite your lip and keep going. I could not follow through with the hard tasks with the same tenacity that I can now. I have learnt that crying about it just makes your eyes all foggy so you can't start laying out the next bow accurately.

I agree that becoming a member of a Guild or Society simply by means of a conversation, or even a presentation of a portfolio of work weakens the standing of such an organisation.

Steve

Steve seems I really stuffed up this thread, one assumption blows into a series of assumptions I apologise for mentioning my mate being accepted without the listing clear full facts . I would have been better to not say a thing. I find it difficult to be 100% clear and understood over a keyboard Some folks must have a gift I do not

regards Jacko

[GrahameA]

Hi Perry

I find it difficult to be 100% clear and understood over a keyboard

I disagree - I know what you meant. I do not necessarilly agree with what you say but I do understand what you meant.

In essence all that has happened is the age old process of thesis, antithesis and perhaps synthesis.

[perry]

I see you too have difficulty being understood Grahame . I get my dictionary and get back to you

regards Perry

[Steven J]

I didn't have a clue either Grahame.

Steve

[CraigMBeckett]

"Craig for the 2nd time I ask you read my post - It say's he was accepted as a BOWMAKER not a bowyer. They have registered Bowyers and seperately registed BOWMAKERS. "

Perry,

Please don't exaggerate, you have only asked me once to read your post and that was in the post that is quoted.

I have re-read your post and see that you specifically said bowmaker, and must admit to assuming the title was your interpretation and not the actual, if I am wrong I apologise.

Which organisation did your friend join? If it is the Craft Guild of Traditional Bowyers and Fletchers, then they are set up specifically to promote the craft in the UK, you cannot become a member if you live overseas you can only become an Associate.

I would also add that the Craft Guild itself allows two forms of full entry, one is via an apprenticeship, the other is by "Recognition of long service as a bowyer or fletcher to the traditional archery community, coupled with an examination by the inner court of workmanship and subsequent acceptance by the guild at large".

So this guild does not require an apprenticeship. So your assertion of a need for an apprenticeship is not something even the guild demands. In addition as the words I use above come from the site of the Worshipful Company of Bowyers, I seems that they themselves use the term Bowyer for people not in either their organisation or the craft guild , otherwise how can people have performed "long service as a bowyer ".

And finally to answer your question I will continue to use the correct English word for a maker of archery bows, which is bowyer. By using the term I do not feel that I am denigrating in any fashion people who have taken it upon themselves to undergo an apprenticeship lasting however many years to learn to make a singular type of bow whether it be a Victorian type so called English Long Bow, a Korean bow, Japanese yumi or whatever other style. I would also suggest that the current craft guild is an attempt at self aggrandizement by a bunch of people whose craft is/was no longer officially recognised as a trade and whose apprenticeships were an in-house affair.

Craig.

[Goblin]

There is ample evidence around the world of continuous lines Master Bowyers. I ask again do we dishounour their legacy by claiming to be Bowyers not Bowmakers. It was suggested earlier Bowmaking is at best a semi skilled job, tell this to a Master Bowyer that can trace his linage back hundreds of years.

I don't think we do dishonour that legacy by using the term bowyer. I think we honor it greatly by choosing to follow their steps in our free time for enjoyment. We don't need bows to fight, hunt or war, but we sit there, think of the past, think of the absolute craftsmanship that men before us achieved and thing "gee, I'd love to learn a little bit of that."

It would be arrogant for any of us to claim to be master bowyers or any kind of lofty title, but craig's awesome quotable sums up why that's the case: "The only reason for there being no further need to learn is death."

My take: When I discussed my desire to make a bow with friends and family I was met with frieldnly skepticism. We live in a world where men travel in space, we talk using light, almost instantly from across the globe, where sealed metal tubes with wings fly through the air, and people think it impossible to get a bit of wood and make it shoot another bit of wood. Not until the moment they saw my first bow launch an arrow, right into a beer box. Classic. The lesson therein is that non-profit bowmaking in this day an age is very much a personal persuit, done for personal satisfaction. Someone who needs the term master is trying way too hard to impress others, and totally denies themselves the opportunity to learn from other people.

We're students and apprentices all, surely. Even those who can make amazing bows are students, otherwise why make that next one? Why try to make a faster better or different style of bow? Some have more experience than others, and its awesome that they teach and share, but its always collaborative, everyone learning from each other.

Who cares what we call ourselves, as long as its sensible. "Individual involved in the shaping of wood into a bow" or "Bowyer," "Bowmaker," whatever.

By the way: The beer box was empty. Don't worry.

[CraigMBeckett]

I don't think we do dishonour that legacy by using the term bowyer. I think we honor it greatly by choosing to follow their steps in our free time for enjoyment. We don't need bows to fight, hunt or war, but we sit there, think of the past, think of the absolute craftsmanship that men before us achieved and thing "gee, I'd love to learn a little bit of that."

It would be arrogant for any of us to claim to be master bowyers or any kind of lofty title

We're students and apprentices all, surely. Even those who can make amazing bows are students, otherwise why make that next one? Why try to make a faster better or different style of bow? Some have more experience than others, and its awesome that they teach and share, but its always collaborative, everyone learning from each other.

Goblin,

Very well put.

Craig.

[Chase N. Nocks]

Perry I understood what you meant as well. But you saw a pot and stirred it AND got 42 comments to your topic. Blimey. Sook!

And I hope you teach Huxley how to make a selfbow one day 'cause I'm bloody hopeless.

(About as able as Scott installing window tint sorry folk private joke)

[perry]

Troy I got home tonight and the front window Tint had peeled another few inches in the heat today, not a scrap of adhesive residue on the window No drama's with the lad mate, gotta teach him over the basics over several weekend hunts with Dad tagging along though. Stop press-Tint stripping BBQ in winter when the professionals are offering discount rates

Craig PM sent. I have a lofty ideals about the rightfull place of history and it being all to often ignored/ diregarded in the world today and am fully aware the same history veiwed through differant eyes draws other conclusions - thats great it makes the world interesting.

I hope we agree there is a long history of Master Bowyers passing on skills to Indentures / Apprentice's throughout the world. A few minutes searching and I came up with these. These links do mention Master and Apprentice relationships and where published in recent years. Perhaps Master Bowyer is the correct term as I feel someone of this ilk deserves a title more noble than a common Bowyer

http://english.cctv.com/program/culture ... 1394.shtml - family business over 4 century's old, son in 3rd year of apprenticeship

http://www.atarn.org/letters/ltr_apr01.htm - Master fletcher Choi Geum Dong started his apprenticeship at the age of 17 and studied for ten years

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/ar ... _5827.html - But recently it has been difficult to find apprentices to teach the traditional techniques

regards Jacko

[greybeard]

Hi Perry,

Thank you for posting an interesting and to some a relevant topic.

I did a Google for master bowyer and got 227,000 references. No doubt many would have been idle prattle.

The one I clicked on was the following:

http://www.wwmag.net/bowyer.htm

If my maths is correct the so called master bowyer turned out a bow every 2.79 days for 23 years.

Call me a cynic or whatever but I can not handle some of the crap that is out there.

It would make interesting reading if one could find the relevant documentation as to when a bowyer met the criteria to become a master bowyer.

Were they rated as to the ability of the bow to cast an arrow, reasonably comfortable to shoot, have durability and be able to produce quality bows on demand?

In the heat of the battle the archer would not give rats ‘a’ if the bowyer left a few sanding marks on the limb.

Perry, I think you know where I am coming from; laminated bows of today have little in common with bows of the past except maybe from their braced profile.

I can see the art of the bowyer disappearing and as we all have witnessed factories are turning out bows that are marketed as traditional.

I do apologize for wafting a little off topic.

Daryl.

[GrahameA]

Morning Daryl

If my maths is correct the so called master bowyer turned out a bow every 2.79 days for 23 years.

Call me a cynic or whatever but I can not handle some of the crap that is out there.

I checked your maths and came up the same. When you think about it that is a lot of bows and a lot of time.

It would make interesting reading if one could find the relevant documentation as to when a bowyer met the criteria to become a master bowyer.

It would even make for good reading as to what criteria was met for one to exit the apprecticship. Time served or what was the demonstration of skill required?

... laminated bows of today have little in common with bows of the past except maybe from their braced profile.

I can see the art of the bowyer disappearing and as we all have witnessed factories are turning out bows that are marketed as traditional.

IMHO the "Art" is changing/has changed/morphing into something else. Bows of today are different to bows of the past yet a well designed bow of today is still a well designed bow and that is reflected in its "performance".

Few people are using modern materials to their capabilities, few people experiment with their designs, few people document their results, even fewer publish their results and very few optimise their designs and manufacturing process.

p.s Interested in forming a Society of Cynics and Dis-Believers

[Steven J]

Grahame,

I would like to join your society, and feel that I have the prerequisite experience of over 7 years to bypass the apprenticeship. I can provide plenty of character references to vouch for this.

Steve

[Goblin]

I'd join the society of cynics and disbelievers, but I just don't think such a society could make any difference, and I'm skeptical about its motives.



Do I qualify?

[Dennis La Varenne]

Bowyer / Bowmaker - Whats the differance?

Heavens!! Hasn't this gotten complicated?

A bowyer and a bowmaker are the same thing - a person who makes bows. Bowyer is a term from an older form of English and bowmaker is the more modern version of the same term.

Bowyer, lawyer, sawyer - are all terms from the same age of the English language. Of these three, the term 'bowyer' has been largely replaced with its modern equivalent.

In the times when it was a formal trade in England, one became a master bowyer after an apprenticeship served and was an apprentice bowyer until then if he was formally apprenticed by his father after the payment of the appropriate fee to a master. This was only the case when, as Graeme pointed out, that the bowyers started forming guilds and getting protective laws passed to protect their craft from unlicensed persons.

Descriptively, it still remains that a bowyer is a person who makes bows, and so is a bowmaker.

Even in the times of the Guilds, there would have been mediocre, competent and excellent bowyers. That is human nature, just as there is the same spread of competence among us now. But all of us try to be the best our native talent allows.