'Takedown' ELBs

[Dennis La Varenne]

I have just received my December/January copy of Primitive Archer and there is a most interesting article by Hugh Soar on three 18th century (ie 1700s) English longbows on page 22.

The featured bow is one made around 1720-1740 which has a hinge which allows it to be folded to half length for convenient transportation. It is not known who made this bow, but the level of ingenuity in the making of the hinge arrangement is very clever and rather sophisticated.

Two other bows are discussed - one made by Grant and having a draw check device. The article has good pictures of the upper horn detail showing the characteristic single side nock of the Scottish bowyers. The other bow is one made by Waring in England.

Both of these latter two bows have two interesting features which may have their provenance in much earlier times. These are that the coned tip of the bow actually is fixed to the horn and actually protrudes out of the top of the horn. It is then filed off to the profile of the horn. This arrangement makes for a far stronger horn than what most of us have done in horning our ELBs. Usually we have coned the bowtip for only about the last 25mm which fits into a the female mate of the cone. This arrangement leaves almost half of the horn unsupported unlike those depicted in this article where only the very outer tip is unsupported.

Also depicted and explained in this article is a so-called 'purging hole' in the horn to allow egress of the excess glue used to fix the horn in place.

I for one will be copying this horning technique in any further ELBs which I make.

Dennis La Varenne

[longbowinfected]

Very interesting Dennis.

WRT aspect about convenient takedown longbows. They seem to be very popular in the US.
They certainly would make carrying them around by aircraft a lot easier.

Without written authority/direction/rulings I had thought that archery associations [without any knowledge of ABA and limited of AA-not a judge] would frown upon a competition archer using a takedown longbow.
Firstly is that true?
Secondly if true Does this then advance the case allowing one to use a bow constructed the same way in competition?
Thirdly what about the other join in the handle types?
Fourth scenario what about takedown longbows with a riser and two removable limbs?
I apologize if this is seen to hijack your thread but it seemed one of a couple of likely questions it raised.

Kevin

[Dennis La Varenne]

Kevin,

I am not closely familiar with the latest set of ABA rules of shoot regarding longbows, but I offer this opinion.

Hypothetically, this kind of takedown longbow which is a hinged latch arrangement certainly predates ABA's pre-1900 standard. I have seen other pictures of this arrangement as well, some of which had removable pins in the hinge which certainly allowed complete takedown. These kinds of bow were called 'carriage' bows in their time, presumably because they were able to be carried in the enclosed space of a carriage (aeroplane, etc. in modern times).

My suggestion would be that applied strictly in accordance with the pre-1900 ruling, only those designs of take-down bow which existed prior to 1900 would qualify. It would not apply generally to all varieties of takedown, and certainly not to the modern 3-piece versions. I have not seen any of the socket arrangement in any pictures of pre-1900 longbows nor any screw together arrangements.

To qualify for an ABA shoot, the onus would/should be on the shooter to provide evidence to the course/group captains and bow checkers for the pre-1900 existence of their preferred arrangement. ABA may need to be lobbied to revise their rules to include certain known pre-1900 takedown arrangements in those rules.

However, just because takedown longbows existed prior to 1900, it does not automatically follow that they should be allowed. That is a matter of deciding on what qualifies for any association's rules of shoot, and that is always an arbitrary decision made by its management committee.

I have posted my views on the pre-1900 rule elsewhere on Ozbow. See the following thread -http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=9046

Dennis La Varenne

[longbowinfected]

Thanks

I am in AA. I doubt whether they will allow three piece takedowns yet they really have almost no rules considering that carbon, glass, deflex/reflex is allowed. I wonder how well the various take down longbows do shoot and whether it is worth pursuing some sort of ruling in AA.
I would expecy performance to be affected with a metal hinge joint in the middle. Having said that the metal tubular take down bows ["Merlin"?/] were well thought of and used in the 1950's and later I believe. Most were in the 33 pound draw weight so would not be that useful these days.

Kevin

[UPTHETOP]

A strait out question then guys I have just brought a two peace B/Widow longbow because of the pain of traveling with a one peace.
Am I able to use this in an ABA shoot classed as a long bow, it is the one with the hidge in the middle and covered with the roll down grip.
I am the first to addmit I dont know much about the rules and regulations I just want to go out and have fun at a shoot but I dont want some rules knob coming up to me after I shoot and saying I shouldnt of thats all.

Cheers Wayno

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Dennis

Re the traditional longbow division, the ABA rules define a longbow being a one piece bow with unidirectional curve. However I feel a takedown longbow would be OK for what ABA classifies as an open longbow division.

Re the Historic bow division as you have noted the onus is on the archer to validate the existence of this particular type of bow prior to 1900, and it need not be a longbow. So if one followed the described bow accurately then they take appropriate copy with them and I agree, it meets the definition. I'm rather interested in the drawcheck you mention. Is there a good description of how it worked in the article? Just wondered if you've ever come across information that irrefutably proves that a bowshelf existed on any bows prior to 1900?

Simon

[greybeard]

An extract from;

The Archery Library
Old Archery Books, Articles and Prints

“There is a bow called the "carriage-bow," which here requires some notice. It is made to divide, in the centre by means of an iron or brass socket fixed to the lower limb of the bow, something similar to the joint of a fishing-rod, in fact. The only object attained, however, is that it enables the Archer when travelling to carry his bow in a smaller compass: but to obtain this, much additional weight is added to the bow, rendering it heavy in hand, and unpleasant in use. The remedy here, therefore, is worse than the disease."

carriagebow.JPG (28.83 KiB) Viewed 2037 times

Although in earlier times it may have been applicable? I must disagree with the author's last sentence.

Daryl.

[Brumbies Country]

A strait out question then guys I have just brought a two peace B/Widow longbow because of the pain of traveling with a one peace.
Am I able to use this in an ABA shoot classed as a long bow, it is the one with the hidge in the middle and covered with the roll down grip.
I am the first to addmit I dont know much about the rules and regulations I just want to go out and have fun at a shoot but I dont want some rules knob coming up to me after I shoot and saying I shouldnt of thats all.

Cheers Wayno

Wayno

I had just had a relook at the ABA rules. I was wrong in my earlier post. Open longbow has still got to be a one piece bow. I have never shot open longbow so wasn't familiar.

[Brumbies Country]

An extract from;

The Archery Library
Old Archery Books, Articles and Prints


Although in earlier times it may have been applicable? I must disagree with the author’s last sentence.

Daryl.

Daryl, a bowyer from Southern NSW has made one like the one you picture here using osage orange in recent months. I haven't shot it but I've held it and don't recall it being heavy in hand.

On a different note you probably wont recall but you sent me an article by Hillary Greenland re building an elm Holmegaard bow. I had a bit of hickory left over and using that article and some very good notes on tillering the Holmegaard by Dennis, nocked one up. Got carried away with making the inner limbs flexible while maintaining the outer limbs narrower diameter and stiff, that I took far too much off the inner limbs. Still some tidying up to do and it's only 28lbs at 28" but quite surprised at the performance. Point on with a high cheekbone anchor is 28 metres (this is starting to sound like the all 28 story) using 320 grain arrows spined at 30-35lbs, and wonderful for stuffed shoulder muscles and re-establishing a good anchor. Will have go at another but will build in more poundage.

Cheers

Simon

[longbowinfected]

Daryl,

is there a reference date, title , chapter, page references for this?
Whenever someone throws something like this up I write it down in my little black book.

Kevin

[UPTHETOP]

Thanks for that information Simon it is much appreciated. Dam rules.

Looks like I spent a 1000 bucks for nothing. Everyone warned me about the ABA Rules I guess I should of listened to them problem is I just paid me annual reg another waste of money as well.
I guess I will just be like the rest of the crowd and move on to another club.

Dissapionted Wayno

[longbowinfected]

If you want I can scrape $100 together.....otherwise use it at independent trad shoots. Maybe you could use it at AA shoots as a longbow I do not think too many would object especially if it is an ELB without a shelf......might check first with an AA judge

[greybeard]

Hi Kevin,

http://www.archerylibrary.com/

From the home page;

"The Archery Library is an online library containing digital versions of old archery books, prints and articles from times past.
On this site you can find the full text of a number of books and articles and a small selection of archery prints.
The time period of the books is from 1545 to 1936.
The books available give an overview of the development of archery through the ages, from weapon of war to high society pastime, hunting and the beginnings of modern target archery."

Daryl.

[Dennis La Varenne]

I have emailed Monroe Luther of Primitive Archer asking permission to reproduce the pictures in PA on this thread. I think that they will explain things much better than the proverbial 1000 words if he permits me reproducing the images from PA.

The issue of the ABA ruling and interpretation of those rules needs to be taken up with them of course. We cannot solve it here and it would be unwise to try to do the archery equivalent of the sea lawyer thing on Ozbow and then turn up at a shoot expecting to argue the point and win. How we may or may not interpret ABA's rules of shoot is seriously fraught. ABA made them and it is up to them to interpret them, not us.

Daryl has found a picture of a socketted carriage bow which I have not seen before and, by its design, would well predate 1900. But, as Simon pointed out above

Re the traditional longbow division, the ABA rules define a longbow being a one piece bow with unidirectional curve.

This definition applies to all longbows across each of its divisions I understand, and has not been changed.

Dennis La Varenne

[longbowinfected]

Daryl, thanks. I found references there well past 1900. Even found elsewhere patent cases in the 1870s. Ford also mentions carriage bows. The patent case was about three tubes. Each end had timber in it and the two tubes inserted into a main tube but held with a pin,

Dennis you are likely to be quite right. I suspect the one piece was put in to stop laminated bows and probably three piece takedowns that some would think are not longbows. at least their rules are consistent or appear to be [not ABA savvy]

Thanks guys

Kevin