History of wood laminated bows

[longbowinfected]

Grahame/Simon
Interesting.
totally agree about long low fletches and in particular the size around 2".
I really think that 4 flights is much more balanced and forgiving especially if you have a very slick tab with spacer and small nocks. I also think for clout 5-10 lbs softer arrows with longbow where the same design but 5 lbs softer than real draw weight.
The above clout arrow with light point, 100 or 125 but for target around 145.
A lot of intense extra practice required to bed down your appreciation of the set up though.
Half a target higher gaps for distance.

well done Simon. After all your hard work and journey you really deserved such a good day out [and no wind]

Kevin

[GrahameA]

Hi Kevin

... I really think that 4 flights is much more balanced and forgiving

Why? So far I have seen no reason why 4 should be better than 3, or 6 better than 4 for that matter.

I also think for clout 5-10 lbs softer arrows with longbow where the same design but 5 lbs softer than real draw weight.

IMHO "No". That is the wrong approach. Specifying arrows by spine works in a simplistic way but it is not the path to good arrow flight. The ideal is to have the arrow go through an oscillation during time it takes to go from stop to clearing the bow and for the nodes to be alinged with the flight direction at the time of disconnection from the string. So the things that become important is the natural frequency of the arrow assembly, the amount of flex and the time that it takes for the arrow to go from full draw to clearing the bow.

[longbowinfected]

They work for me on my rig......that is why.

I can feel and observe the action/result.
I can and have used a club chrony and checked performance and consistency.....this rig works best for my bow....for most applications and has delivered a dramatic improvement in my scores. I do not have a camera set up to carry out additional testing and at this point in time I do not feel an overriding compulsion to do so.

By highlighting what works for me others may try different things.
If you do not try things you could die wondering.

Kevin

[Brumbies Country]

Grahame/Simon
Interesting.

well done Simon. After all your hard work and journey you really deserved such a good day out [and no wind]

Kevin

Thanks Kevin. There was some wind, enough to make it interesting. Have to say that I'm really starting to enjoy clout. If you are talking to Ian Stokes please tell him that I took his advice re the recommendation he gave me at the WM Games and while a bit early to be definitive, it's looking pomising.

Simon

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Kevin

... I really think that 4 flights is much more balanced and forgiving

Why? So far I have seen no reason why 4 should be better than 3, or 6 better than 4 for that matter.

I also think for clout 5-10 lbs softer arrows with longbow where the same design but 5 lbs softer than real draw weight.

IMHO "No". That is the wrong approach. Specifying arrows by spine works in a simplistic way but it is not the path to good arrow flight. The ideal is to have the arrow go through an oscillation during time it takes to go from stop to clearing the bow and for the nodes to be alinged with the flight direction at the time of disconnection from the string. So the things that become important is the natural frequency of the arrow assembly, the amount of flex and the time that it takes for the arrow to go from full draw to clearing the bow.

Morning Grahame

I go the 3 small fletch route currently but in my hands too for clout the 5-10lbs softer arrows for longbow and 5lbs softer than real draw weight seems to work better for me than matching arrows. That is shooting conventional longbow (American flatbow). I can't yet make the 145 m with my ELBs, but for target shooting ELB I go better with shafts spined 5-10lbs lighter than draw weight. No surprises there. That's an established given.

Simon

[GrahameA]

Morning Kevin

I really think that 4 flights is much more balanced ...

Have a look the apparent fletch area to apparent air movement as the arrow rotates in flight.

For a four fletch setup the apparent area will oscillate between a maximum and a minimum thus there is a constantly changing force that is being used to correct the arrows flight as the arrow rotates. For a three fletch setup the apparent area remains constant and thus the force. The question to ask what would be the result if the rate of the oscillation conicided with the natural frequency of the arrow assembly.

If there was any advantage in the use of four fletching then it would be widely used yet observation shows that it is rarely used and I am not aware of any top level archer who uses it.

Edit
Morning Simon

You snuck a reply whilst I was typing.

I go the 3 small fletch route currently but in my hands too for clout the 5-10lbs softer arrows for longbow and 5lbs softer than real draw weight seems to work better for me than matching arrows. That is shooting conventional longbow (American flatbow). I can't yet make the 145 m with my ELBs, but for target shooting ELB I go better with shafts spined 5-10lbs lighter than draw weight. No surprises there. That's an established given.

You may find that things may change when you change the bow/arrow design parameters.

Once you get a bow/arrow that shoots faster for a given draw weight you will need to go to a stiffer arrow for good flight.

Collected a new bow yesterday that is a bit of an experiment in construction technique. So I now have to tune that setup. First move will probably be to replace the sring with something thinner and with less stretch. And then it will be a sort through the arrow rack to see what it shoots reasonably well.

[Brumbies Country]

Edit
Morning Simon

You snuck a reply whilst I was typing.

I go the 3 small fletch route currently but in my hands too for clout the 5-10lbs softer arrows for longbow and 5lbs softer than real draw weight seems to work better for me than matching arrows. That is shooting conventional longbow (American flatbow). I can't yet make the 145 m with my ELBs, but for target shooting ELB I go better with shafts spined 5-10lbs lighter than draw weight. No surprises there. That's an established given.

You may find that things may change when you change the bow/arrow design parameters.

Once you get a bow/arrow that shoots faster for a given draw weight you will need to go to a stiffer arrow for good flight.

Collected a new bow yesterday that is a bit of an experiment in construction technique. So I now have to tune that setup. First move will probably be to replace the sring with something thinner and with less stretch. And then it will be a sort through the arrow rack to see what it shoots reasonably well.

The longbows I were referring to were both Jo Vardon Bagend bows so IMHO reasonably quick, although admittedly not as fast as a deflex/reflex. Re strings, I'm finding 10 strand dacron doesn't perform too shabbily in one of my ELBs. Not as fast as ff but meets the Historic bow rules and doesn't suffer much in comparison until I get out past 40 m. Trialed 330 grain (all up) barelled shafts with 70 gr pts against 330 gr(all up) regular shafts with 100gr pt at 40- to 50m out of a 40lb ELB yesterday. No statistical significant difference. Have to say the the 9/32" nocks grab a little tighter on the 10 strand string however.

Simon

[longbowinfected]

I prefer to test scenarios in real life in tough circumstances in tough conditions....they are the ones that count. Reports and learned discourses are greatly useful. Very little study or reports have related to lower poundage draw weight bows. Most of the really good longbow archers that I shoot with use flat laid bows with higher than 50# draw or 45# and higher d/r longbows. Arrow speed at target and clout is relatively important in high wind conditions, especially a crosswind.

Get into an extreme high cross wind situation shooting at clout or long target using aluminium arrows through a flat laid longbow with a draw weight under 50# and it is easy to see the extent of the effects of such wind when you use 3 feathers. In many cases you have to aim your arrow a full target to one side. Ever since I started using the rig/setup I described with four short feathers even at 60 metres I only at worst have to aim about a foot to two feet from the x. At 40 and 30 metres in the most extreme winds this is down to an inch.

At the last couple of events a few of the really talented guys using the much faster bows coped but not that well in comparison to those shooting 4 feathers. The three people who did use four feathers at the Masters last week were myself, Ian Stokes, Bob Sheehan. Coincidently we also had the highest scores on the park for the 30 metres with the exception of two archers (Mick Turner [barebow recurve] & Steve Farrell who are both freaks). Both Bob and Ian won 4 golds at the Masters I only bagged a silver, bronze and two fourth placings. Both Bob and Ian have been ranked in the top 3 longbow archers in the world for field. My FAWR last year and this year are not too shabby. The medals I did win were against archers with a higher rating record than me by at least 100 points. Bob started with trying every arrow in his kit and only succeeded when he followed my advice on the line and changed to the only set he had of four small feathers.
The last 4 major AA target and clout tournaments at this years Nationals, the same events at the Nationals the year before, this years two NSW State target titles plus last years NSW target and clout titles as well as the World Masters target clout and IFAA field this year were all shot in such circumstances......every major shoot I have shot in for basically the last two years. At Morwell two years ago I had three feathers except for clout. My clout feathers were too high and I cut them down....then they worked.

From that point on both Ian Stokes and I have shot with 4 small feathers. Ian is arguably as good as Steve Farrell or Joe Vardon. Bob Sheehan is also well regarded.

In AA there are no length of or number of feather rules. In other associations I believe there are which could partially explain why more folk may not be seen to be using them.
My friend Jamie from Woodford is a keen hunter not interested in target but is well known in hunting circles, uses 4 x5" feathers. I have a number of friendship arrows received from hunters at NSW trad shoots that have four feathers.

At the end of the day it is all about what works for you after trialling/experimentation/tuning. I rarely go with the long held myths and legends unless I try them and they work. From where I sit these legends/myths are not reliable and hold longbow archery back. Do I know why everything I try works or not? No. Do you know anyone with a hooter shooter and strong fans? If you set that up I will send you a couple of my arrows when the season is over or perhaps we can do some "tests" next year around the Nationals.....I expect heavy wind conditions to keep up the previous standards.....unless you advise me that Qld weather is wondeful one day and perfect the next and that I should not worry.

Kevin

[longbow steve]

For a four fletch setup the apparent area will oscillate between a maximum and a minimum thus there is a constantly changing force that is being used to correct the arrows flight as the arrow rotates.

Do you mean this occurs when 2 sets of hen feathers make up the 4 fletch? These crazy dudes have then every 90 degrees .
I dont know whether they work or not anymore than 3 fletch as I havent needed to change my set up, the only time I have used 4 fletch was on my hunting arrows as I wanted to use up some short feathers, over 3 meters they flew well and showed no cross wind effects . Steve

[ichiban]

darn, i wish i knew they where on i would have been there with bells on!

[GrahameA]

Hi Steve

Do you mean this occurs when 2 sets of hen feathers make up the 4 fletch? These crazy dudes have then every 90 degrees .

I will draw you a diagramme. If you go to the 60/120 setup, from the side, you are approximating a two setup.

I dont know whether they work or not anymore than 3 fletch as I havent needed to change my set up, the only time I have used 4 fletch was on my hunting arrows as I wanted to use up some short feathers, over 3 meters they flew well and showed no cross wind effects . Steve

I find 3 fletch works good enough for me. All I would gain by going to 4 fletch is more drag which I don't need and extra work gluing on more fletches. Yes, in my opinion, flight over 3 metres should be adequate. Plus you goot to use up those leftovers.