Hickory for Elb

[Brumbies Country]

I've got a hickory Elb shaped out. It seems to be comparitively tough wood. Just wondered if anything I need to be aware of and I'd value other people's experience of working with. In some quarters it's suggested that it's almost unbreakable but Paul Comstock suggests that if you cut it to the same dimensions you would for a yew bow, then it can break. Not quite sure how to interpret that.

Simon

[longbow steve]

Hey Simon, Hickory is renowned for it strength , durabilty and will survive grain violation that would destroy most other potential bows.
It is probably a great option for your dry climate down there as it is recommended that to reduce set and get hickory bows performing reduce them to a lower moisture content.
I have used Pecan and it was very tolerant of poor bow making , there is a chance that your Hickory is actually Pecan as it is often sold as Hickory but still a good timber. Steve
Are you going to go a bit shorter on this one?

[Brumbies Country]

Thanks Steve

That's great feedback. Going for 75" with this one. It seems to me to be a good length for an Elb and wonderful for putting the opposition off when you even unintentionally gently prod them with the bow tips (especially effective with horn nocks) as they are preparing to shoot . On a more serious note I figured a bit of extra length at this stage of my bow building would be a bit more forgiving of errors on my part.

Interesting your comment re the dryness of the climate here (real dry right now). John Gaston, who has built a good number of bows here thinks we are at a disadvantage re selfbow construction.

Cheers

Simon

[longbow steve]

Do a search on Primitive archer etc regarding moisture content of Hickory, I think it is probably ideal if dry climates are of concern.
You could probably go shorter with such a quality timber for a bit more poke but you can make up for the loss of poke by have more reach for more fun poking as you say . Kevin loves being poked by a longbow and you would have a great presence on the shooting line at the State indoors, you could annoy 6 archers at a time Steve

[Brumbies Country]

[quote="and you would have a great presence on the shooting line at the State indoors, you could annoy 6 archers at a time Steve[/quote]

Yeah, I had visions of doing that re the ACT indoors. Get right up the collective noses of the wheelie boys .

Re extra poke, distance not archers, I would have thought that that extra speed/distance would need more pulling power on my part at shorter limb length, or do you think that I could get increased speed at less length but with bow poundage constant?

Cheers

Simon

[ichiban]

the hickory would be at equilibrium for this climate (ausming you bought it around yass/canberra) i have no experiance with hickory but i always go the safest rout but depending on the draw weight/length 72" should be fine.

Dave

[Brumbies Country]

the hickory would be at equilibrium for this climate (ausming you bought it around yass/canberra) i have no experiance with hickory but i always go the safest rout but depending on the draw weight/length 72" should be fine.

Dave

Dave, the hickory was bought through Monaro Timbers in Canberra but is of US origin. Not sure re your reference to equilibrium.

Cheers

Simon

[longbow steve]

Dave is refering to the timber reaching a stable moisture content according to the area it is to be worked so if you purchased your lumber in Sydney it would be advisable to allow the timber to stabilise for a period to prevent movement when you begin working on the stave.
I agree 72 inches should be adeqaute for a full compass design and still give you enough reach for 4 compound shooters .
You are in effect asking more of less wood so it should be faster provided it does not take excessive set. Steve

[Brumbies Country]

Thanks Steve

4 compounders taken out is a good days work for any longbower. . Appreciate your explanations.

Simon

[Len]

Hey Simon, looking forward to your next bow and really want to see you do a hickory backed spotty gum bow. In regards to length, I reckon an under stressed bow is better for longer life and also the longer bows are often easier to shoot accurately.

[Brumbies Country]

Hey Simon, looking forward to your next bow and really want to see you do a hickory backed spotty gum bow. In regards to length, I reckon an under stressed bow is better for longer life and also the longer bows are often easier to shoot accurately.

Great counterarguement. I'm a great fan for getting as long a life out of selfbows as we possibly can Len and I'm still competitive minded enough to think that accuracy is the major consideration. Not saying that I'm shooting as well as I'd like but anything that facilitates accuracy has to top of the list of priorities. Point on with the two 75" Elbs I've been shooting (around 40lbs) with a med release anchoring index finger on my cheekbone point on is not much over 30 m but if you scored really well on targets at 5m -30m on ABA and AA courses you'd end up with a very respectable score.

Re arrow speed/ bow cast, as well as length something that Paul Comstock talks about is reducing end of limb weights. For every grain you reduced there at end of limb he reckons its equivalent to losing one grain of arrow weight. With a heavy wood like hickory he reckons with careful attention that could be a significant weight reduction ie 100 grains. Equivalent to 100 grain arrow weight reduction would get that speed/cast up a bit in it's own right.

Having said that I will make a shorter one not too far down the track to get a comparison.

Would love to back a bow soon. I've very simple tools (no bandsaw) and cutting to cabinet making standards is currently tricky but I guess people backed bows with wood without access to sophisticated gear over a long period.

Simon

[greybeard]

Hi Simon,

It is a little difficult to offer constructive information re length of bow without knowing your draw length and the desired draw weight of the bow.

Daryl.

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Daryl

Just above 40lbs and draw length 271/2".

Simon

[greybeard]

Simon,

For that draw weight and draw length I think you will be disappointed with the performance of a bow at 75”. At 72” it is probably a bit of overkill but should keep you within safe limits. If the billet/board has good qualities you could possibly look at 68/69” nock to nock.

Lighter poundage bows with long limbs store little energy and you end up with a lazy bow.

For performance you need to push the timber close to its limits.

With a shorter bow you reduce the physical weight of the limbs and increase the distance that the tips travel and as a result performance will increase.

Having said this, work on a limb length that will keep the string angle to limb [at full draw] below 90 degrees.

Daryl.

[ichiban]

sorry i forgot to mention, i build my elbs to 72" because some comps classifiy a long bow as being man tall so as i am 6 foot its as short as possable but it also depends on the cross section that you want the bow to have and how it will be tillered with hichory it would be expensive to play around but its all you can really do..

cheers,
Dave

[Brumbies Country]

Thanks Daryl and Dave

Appreciate your feedback. I spent hours yesterday sanding down during tillering process finally reckoning I had a bow in the mid 40's re poundage and something I liked the look of. It's a tough wood and I finally downed tools at 8.15pm. I did some sheep work as well.

Took the raw bow, no handle covering, no finish protection and shot an ABA 3D 3 arrow round followed by 1 arrow round today. Actually thrilled the way it performed. More speed than I've previously had in an Elb. Got the limb ends well fined down. Really like the way hickory performs based on this one experience

Take your point re shorter bow and more speed and will be a project down the track but happy with this one at this point.

Cheers

Simon

[ichiban]

glad its doing it for you, i wanted to do a simmeler thing but hickory was to expencive so check out my "Next bow" thread and see if we wound up with simmiler looking bows. mines finished at 40lbs at 29".


cheers,
Dave

[Brumbies Country]

glad its doing it for you, i wanted to do a simmeler thing but hickory was to expencive so check out my "Next bow" thread and see if we wound up with simmiler looking bows. mines finished at 40lbs at 29".


cheers,
Dave

Saw that bow you made Dave and commented on the "Next Bow" thread this morning. Really like the look of that bow you made. I was talking to a Canberra bowyer of some standing yesterday and he said that the dry climate here increases the difficulty in getting them to survive. I reckon these two (yours and mine) will .

Cheers

Simon

[greybeard]

Hi Simon,

Well done

What bow length did you settle on?

Daryl.

[Brumbies Country]

Thanks Daryl

You probably don't want to know about the length . It's 76" nock to nock but significantly increased speed relative to ash Elbs! I like the lines of it-had to get it very slim to get down to the mid-40lbs. Put a string handle on Sunday night and now has 4 coats of cabinet makes wax. Dazzlingly blond, but legend has it gentlemen prefer blonds and you would want to stain hickory dark if you were hunting with it.

I've still plenty left from the plank and next one will be shorter. Thanks for your advice, including comments re grain earlier.

Cheers

Simon

[pdccr]

Is mountain ash or Vic ash any good for a bow? I have red ceder, quandong, ash and now i found some aussie hardwood floor boards i have a little selection. Going to a mill on Thursday to see what they have.

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Toby

My bow making so far is limited to US woods which is very unpatriotic I know . I have an 8 ft stave of elm cut but even that is of UK origins. There are others on this forum well qualified to reply re the timbers you refer to. I saw an interesting thread of Graeme K's in which he was growing Red Ash ( long term plan). Given his knowledge of bow timbers it would seem red ash is a good prospect.

Cheers

Simon

[pdccr]

I dont think its unpatriotic, there isnt alot of material you can build proper ELB's in australia from. There probably is but how would i know lol. I read that ash was good but then it was too brittle. I have what i think is white ash, mountain ash and Vic ash.

[greybeard]

Hi Simon,

If you have some spare hickory with suitable grain it could be rewarding to make a flatbow. I believe that this design will bring out the best qualities of good hickory.

http://www.vintageprojects.com/archery/ ... plans.html

Although the romance goes on with English style longbows there are few locally available timbers that are suitable for full 'D' sectioned longbows.

Daryl.

[pdccr]

Could you make a spotted gum longbow?

[greybeard]

Hi Toby,

You can make a 'longish' bow from spotted gum. You have to determine what style of 'longish' bow suits the particular piece of timber.

From my experience most Australian hardwoods [late growth] are more suited to the flat bow style rather than a full 'D' sectioned bows.

Daryl.

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Simon,

If you have some spare hickory with suitable grain it could be rewarding to make a flatbow. I believe that this design will bring out the best qualities of good hickory.

http://www.vintageprojects.com/archery/ ... plans.html

Although the romance goes on with English style longbows there are few locally available timbers that are suitable for full 'D' sectioned longbows.

Daryl.

Thanks Daryl

On my list of "to do" things is to make an American Indian flatbow and a Holmegaard bow. I would like to do some backing with sinew re the Indian bow, although the strength of this hickory with making this Elb would make me believe that hickory would not need backing as a matter of course.

Simon

[pdccr]

Ok thanks daryl

[ichiban]

i dont think canberra is to dry for bows to survive and if it is then we rock!! but i have found that year a full D cros section is very very hard to make using aussie timbers but if you want a long bow just give it a more rectangular cross section and you could wind up with a more efficiant bow in the process.
and graybeard is so right its not funny i have tryed a long bow (freted 21 times, even though tiller was fine) and a flat bow from the same board and although the flatbows IMHO take longer to make they last and last.

[Brumbies Country]

i dont think canberra is to dry for bows to survive and if it is then we rock!! but i have found that year a full D cros section is very very hard to make using aussie timbers but if you want a long bow just give it a more rectangular cross section and you could wind up with a more efficiant bow in the process.
and graybeard is so right its not funny i have tryed a long bow (freted 21 times, even though tiller was fine) and a flat bow from the same board and although the flatbows IMHO take longer to make they last and last.

Dave, interesting point. Re this Hickory Elb I had to take the rectangular cross-section down considerably smaller than for two ash Elbs of roughly the same draw weight yet it feels like it's going to last for a long time. This hickory bow is really slender which makes for less arrow deflection and using crude bathroom scales methodology it came in at 51 lbs. I reckon its nearer 45 and I'm going to have to go out and get a proper scale.

Simon