lamintated shafts?

[ichiban]

i have a habbit of killing arrows while involved in trad archery fun so, i got to thinking how can a make a stronger arrow with out spending alot of cash on hardwood (cause its fun to make your own) and messing up the spine to much, so i came to the conclusion that if i had a thin strip of hardwood (for the prototype i used brushbox) between cedar the brushbox may act as a sort of backbone to the cedar, making it stronger without having its grain weight skyrocket.
i have just started finishing the shaft so i will post some pics when i finish but i would like some imput to weather it has been done befor and how it went, or anything elce on the subject, if nothing elce it makes a nice looking shaft.
in retrospect i should have put cedar in the core and had brushbox on the flanks but hey i have more cedar than i have brushbox......


thanks in advance guys.
Dave

[pdccr]

I will be looking forward to the finished results, sounds like it looks good.

[Stickbow Hunter]

Yes it has been done before like most things mate. Some shafts are made by laminating them like six triangle slices of cake. These have been made commercially and were called 'Hex' shafts.

Depending on how thick a lam of brushbow you used I think it will increase your spine quite a bit and add some weight. It will be interesting to hear about and see your results when you have it finished.

Jeff

[TomMcDonald]

http://www.hexshaftarrows.com/index.html

[Stickbow Hunter]

Thats the ones Tom.

Jeff

[Benny Nganabbarru]

And there's laminated birch, too. It can be bought at 3Rivers, or you can get custom arrows made by Paul Jalon of Elite Arrows from it.

[ichiban]

wow those hex shafts are darn nice any way last coat of finish today then ill fletcher her up and do some testing

[longbowinfected]

I reckon hex laminated Hoop Pine would be very light and strong and would be worth the effort.
Laminated Ramin would be great too.

Kevin

[GrahameA]

Morning Kev

Why would you bother laminating Ramin??

[ichiban]

here are the pics, sorry about the quality but you get the idea from these, any imput would be appreciated.
and i will let you know how testing goes

[Steven J]

They look great - If I squint a bit.

I will be interested to hear how they go.

Steve

[Stephen Georgiou]

Hello there ichiban what glue did you use on the laminated ramin?
I have been looking for timber arrows that will spine similar to a 2219 XX75. How stiff whre these ramin shaft?

[longbowinfected]

I would not necessarily laminate Ramin with Ramin as I think it is almost the perfect timber arrow resource...except for slight problems with end splitting and surface checking
I would however laminate it with something else as a composite....or with other pieces of Ramin to reduce this possibility. Grain is not always continuous with some surface interlocking.

With laminated timbers I find that the affects, if any, of small spots or flaws along just at one part are reduced greatly and affect performance less. It is a process where the sum parts of the whole seem to be better in many building and construction processes. If you look at Bootle, heartwood and sapwood are very difficult to differentiate. Sapwood is 60 mm wide and a number of whole arrows might be all sapwood, part sapwood or all heartwood with different performance characteristics. Ramin is also susceptible to splitting at the ends and surface checking. As you cut and/or sand at each end for nocks and points it might be better to laminate.......making a super timber arrow.

With heavier hardwoods where a lighter arrow is required it might be useful.

Word of caution: Ramin dust and/or swarf is highly irritating

Kevin

[ichiban]

stephen, its not laminated ramin i have flanks of cedar and a core of brushbox (its what i had around) and sorry but i really dont understand crabon/graphite/aluminum spines i have only ever shot wood from wood (except for a few weeks ago where i got my samick skb) i used titebond 3 on this shaft, i find that its a good all round glue (probably no good for laminted bows, havent tryed it)

Results time,
i found from my 60lb bow she flew perfectly at 10 paces, hitting an average of about 2cm away from the POC everytime and generally above or bellow, not left to right. i guess i lucked out and got the spine right.
i found that what im atributing to heavyer mass she penitrated deeper.
i am also of the oppinion that although this one worked out at 11/32 at 5/16 and lower poundage results would have been diffrent, as i belive spine needs to be more percise at lower poundages.
for this arrow i used 3mm brushbox and 2x 3mm cedar. for 5/16 im guessing it would be benificial to reduce the hardwood core a little to say 2mm brush box and 2x 3mm cedar.
i had the intention of doing some destructive testing, but i cant bring myself to do it, but i think it would be safe to assume that the laminated shaft would be stronger. however im not sure how much stronger and if it would be strong enough to withstand say a shot into a brick wall.

when i make a dowling jig and a spine tester ill make some more.

[Stephen Georgiou]

Thanks very much for the response. I will try a few different timbers and see what will be the correct width and combination to give a spine for my 70lb longbow.

I have just read a book by Byron Ferguson and he mentions that tuning of the long bow for different spines can be done by adjusting the brace height. For stiffer arrows the brace height in lowered and for softer spined arrows the brace height is raised. On his bows he gives a range of 6 1/4" to 6 3/4" brace height. He suggests that you shoot the arrow from 10 paces at a target and if it strikes the target with the nock to the right of the point of impact then the arrow is soft so the brace height is increased to compensate. And visa versa. But keep within the manufacturers specified brace height range.

do you go through this type is tuning Dave? I must say this is a new concept for me so I am open to suggestions.

[jape]

Hi, I assume as you say you are getting a dowelling jig you rounded these by hand? I never get them even, just my lack of ability. let us know how you go with jigs, I haven't been able to find one at a worthwhile (to me ) price yet.

[Stephen Georgiou]

NO problem as soon as I can get some serious numbers of shafts made I will let you all know.

arrow dwg.JPG (39.41 KiB) Viewed 4289 times

profile of blank planing.

4oregonarrows-1.jpg (43.57 KiB) Viewed 4288 times

Hand planed and finished arrows.

[ichiban]

well i personaly just use my fistmele for my brace hight, i am complete agreance with the idea that any bent stick will make a bow but your arrows have to be dead on to hit consistantly, hey you could use this method to make heavyer shafts, just increase the hard wood core.... some experimenting would need to be done i guess.

thanks for the imput guys.
Dave

[Stephen Georgiou]

Exactly what I am thinking except I would put the denser timber on the outside with the lighter timber in the core. This would allow for the mass of the arrow to be closer to the outside diameter similar to an aluminium shaft stiffening the arrow. Then all you need to do to change the spine is adjust the ratio of hard to soft wood. Given the shortage of POC of heavy spine This could be a really good alternative!

POC veneer.JPG (4.87 KiB) Viewed 4159 times

Something like this?

[ichiban]

exactly what i was thinking there could be a large number of applications for this, as i said b4 i used cedar on the flanks as its what i had at the time, but it dose open up a can of worms. if nothing elce a strip of bloodwood/purple heart or whatever between spruce looks pritty darn nice....

Dave

[ichiban]

ok i sucked it up and did some destructive testing.
5 shots at five paces at a pine 2x4 using my 50lb bamboo backed ironbark longbow
the first three shot where fine.
on the forth the POC showed a compression fracture 2 inces from the pile, the laminated shaft was fine, not even a little creeping of the timber over the pile.
on the fifth shot the POC snapped, and the laminated shaft...lives to shoot another day.

pritty much the results i was expecting, but now im out an arrow hehe.

please, someone elce give this ago and put up your experiance, its time consuming but well worth it, and if you make your own shafts it dosent add much time at all other than the glue drying but adds alot of strength.

cheers,
Dave

[jape]

Well done. OK, I will give it a go but it won't be soon, too busy. I have tried just about everything else with arrows, this will do me good to make some shafts as I have been putting that off ...