Help point another beginner in the right direction

[flyonline]

Hi all

firstly, apologies in advance for guffs and obvious newb mistakes - we've all got to start somewhere though!

I've taken an interest in building a bow for myself but would like a bit of a reality check and advice/suggestions.

As a new shooter as well, am I much better off buying a bow, shooting it for 6 months then coming back to a build? I generally enjoy the design and build as much as the use and as such have self taught and designed and built composite RC sailplanes, built my own fly rod, tie my own flies and build lures....you get the picture.

I'm tossing up between a simple self bow a la cadet's Cypress bow or going for a bamboo backed board bow like poorfolkbow and many others, but is either going to be easier as a novice? I also have an almost unlimited supply of seasoned oak staves from work (assumed to be q. robur as they're marked as french oak), some of which have a near dead straight grain, but would have to be built as separate limbs rather than a single piece of timber as they're only 900mm long.

I'm attracted mostly to hunting rather than target shooting as I am a bit of a wildlife lover and would like to do something to help the local wildlife, plus on a calm night I can hear fallow deer calling down by the river only 500m away, so one day...

Not going for anything big, I reckon I'd be happy with something in the order of 30# to shoot some arrows and not stress my skinny white frame too much at the start

Cheers

Steve

[Sabinus]

Hey Steve, I reckon get a bow and start shooting. Six months down the track you'll have generated some experience and insight into archery, and this will really help your bow building then.

[greybeard]

Hi Steve, welcome to Ozbow.

........As a new shooter as well, am I much better off buying a bow, shooting it for 6 months then coming back to a build?.......

Do both, while you are learning how to shoot a bow you can learn how to make a bow and especially learn the art of tillering.

........ I also have an almost unlimited supply of seasoned oak staves from work (assumed to be q. robur as they're marked as french oak), some of which have a near dead straight grain, but would have to be built as separate limbs rather than a single piece of timber as they're only 900mm long........

Common Name(s): English Oak, European Oak
Scientific Name: Quercus robur
Distribution: Most of Europe, to Asia Minor, and North Africa
Tree Size: 80-115 ft (24-35 m) tall, 3-5 ft (1-1.5 m) trunk diameter
Average Dried Weight: 42 lbs/ft3 (675 kg/m3)
Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .53, .67
Janka Hardness: 1,120 lbf (4,980 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 14,100 lbf/in2 (97.1 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 1,544,000 lbf/in2 (10.60 GPa)
Crushing Strength: 6,720 lbf/in2 (46.3 MPa)
Shrinkage:Radial: 4.7%, Tangential: 8.4%, Volumetric: 13.0%, T/R Ratio: 1.8

You could splice the 900mm billets as shown below and finish up with a bow blank 1600mm long when using a 100mm splice.

Splice.jpg (222.93 KiB) Viewed 8650 times

Although the bow may end up having a slightly shorter draw length you have an excellent opportunity to learn the art of the bowyer.

Daryl.

[flyonline]

Thanks guys, I kind of figured that doing both at the same time would probably be the best option. I have the ability to set up an indoor range up to ~20m, plus and outdoor to 50-60m so there is no issue getting some shooting done every day.

I've more or less decided on a Samick Sage on the basis that I can't find a bad word about it anywhere (taken with a grain of salt of course!) plus it should do me well until I want to step up to higher poundages and can easily re-sell in the future if I want to.

Daryl

unfortunately the staves would struggle to be thick enough to splice together in that manner from back-belly, is it possible to the splice across the width of the bow? (and is there a name for bows with 2 limbs rather than 1 continuous? Searched but can't find anything). I can get ex-barrel staves that would be possible to splice though.

Steve

[greybeard]

.........I've more or less decided on a Samick Sage on the basis that I can't find a bad word about it anywhere (taken with a grain of salt of course!) plus it should do me well until I want to step up to higher poundages and can easily re-sell in the future if I want to.......

Or you can buy heavier limbs.

.......unfortunately the staves would struggle to be thick enough to splice together in that manner from back-belly, is it possible to the splice across the width of the bow?........

Steve,

The splice shown in the photo in my previous reply is across the width of the bow.

The diagram below shows the layout of the splice. Dimensions can be adjusted to suit the width of the limb.

1 Z Splice.jpg (19.41 KiB) Viewed 8638 times

Daryl.

[flyonline]

Or you can buy heavier limbs.

Indeed, hadn't thought of that.

Steve,

The splice shown in the photo in my previous reply is across the width of the bow.

The diagram below shows the layout of the splice. Dimensions can be adjusted to suit the width of the limb.

1 Z Splice.jpg

Daryl.

Sweet, thanks. For some reason I thought that it was only possible back-belly (not sure why). A couple of staves 'fell off the back of a forklift' for a bit of a tinker the other day.

Steve

[Nezwin]

Some nice White Oak should make a lovely bow. Might also be good for a backing material, if you get some timbers that are appropriate.

If you need some help with that fallow deer, send me a PM

[yeoman]

Would you happen to be a cooper, or otherwise work in the viticulture industry?

Even a 75 mm splice should be enough, gaining you a couple of extra inches of bow length.

Your other option would be to make a takedown in which the two limbs butt up against each other in the handle sleeve, meaning you won't lose any length to a splice. How thick are your boards?

[flyonline]

Would you happen to be a cooper, or otherwise work in the viticulture industry?

Even a 75 mm splice should be enough, gaining you a couple of extra inches of bow length.

Your other option would be to make a takedown in which the two limbs butt up against each other in the handle sleeve, meaning you won't lose any length to a splice. How thick are your boards?

Pretty much, I work in a winery (other side of the fence so to speak) so I get to work with the finished product

I did think of a take down, more along the lines of a 3 piece but figure that for a first timer I'd be better off going with a single piece so I don't have to worry about getting accurate and strong bolt/alignment pins.

Boards I have on hand are 40x9x900mm, but I can get 50x7(?)x900. Just realised though that I forgot to allow for a hole in the end of each board, so workable length is more like 875.

Have another project I want to finish first so still researching designs/templates.

[Nezwin]

I get to work with the finished product

Living the dream!

Boards I have on hand are 40x9x900mm, but I can get 50x7(?)x900. Just realised though that I forgot to allow for a hole in the end of each board, so workable length is more like 875.

9mm (a bit under 3/8") might be a bit thin to get a bow 30#@28". For a white wood you might want to be aiming for 1/2" or 5/8" thick boards. You can get around this by laminating two of your boards together for depth and then splicing at the handle (or incorporating a take down sleeve, although that might be better left for a future build - start simple, work up).

With 875mm (34" + a bit) you can get a 66" bow with a 2" splice at the centre. Just my two cents, but as a beginner I would glue these into two flat-laid limbs 34" long by 18mm thick by 40mm wide, then splice at the handle (as Greybeard has described) and apply 6"-8" overlays at the splice. I'd leave the boards full width with a 10" stiff section in the handle area (to protect the splice) and have a straight pyramid taper from 40mm at the fades to 1/2" at the nocks. For limb thickness, from the end of the stiff section, I'd start at 5/8" with a straight taper to 10-11mm at the nocks - just enough that you don't go through your belly lam. That should be a fairly straightforward & simple bow to learn tillering on. As you pick up skills & learn what kind of bows interest you the White Oak boards will serve you well to develop more complex designs, such as incorporating a handle sandwiched between the lams or using reflex & recurves, for instance.

There are others who might be able to offer better designs but that would be my quick, go-to, simple suggestion.

[flyonline]

<snip> ....although that might be better left for a future build - start simple, work up).

My thoughts entirely as well!

With 875mm (34" + a bit) you can get a 66" bow with a 2" splice at the centre. Just my two cents, but as a beginner I would glue these into two flat-laid limbs 34" long by 18mm thick by 40mm wide, then splice at the handle (as Greybeard has described) and apply 6"-8" overlays at the splice. I'd leave the boards full width with a 10" stiff section in the handle area (to protect the splice) and have a straight pyramid taper from 40mm at the fades to 1/2" at the nocks. For limb thickness, from the end of the stiff section, I'd start at 5/8" with a straight taper to 10-11mm at the nocks - just enough that you don't go through your belly lam. That should be a fairly straightforward & simple bow to learn tillering on.

With regards to the overlays how thick would I be aiming for?

Thanks for the pointers, sounds like a good plan and I have the gear here to do something like that.


Steve

[Nezwin]

With regards to the overlays how thick would I be aiming for?

1/8" should do, more if you want a thicker/heavier handle. These will also need ramps/fades incorporated, as much for aesthetics than anything. I usually aim for a 4" flat section (2" either side of centre) where the hand engages, the rest of the overlay/handle being a ramp/fade. The 4" flat section then gets rasped, filed & sanded to fit the hand. I'll post some pictures when I get to my other computer.

[flyonline]

So I glued 2 staves together into a billet and played around with making up a planing form and using my router to trim most of the bulk excess material off the thickness of the billet. Wasn't sure how it would work out as the staves we work with are notorious for splintering, plus the few other projects I've used them they are a bugger to work with.

However it worked a lot better than I was hoping, and I was able to reduce the thickness to a straight taper very easily and quickly with only one very small portion of breakout on the edge. I was also very happy with the way the glue line turned out as there were a couple of slight warps in the timber before I started. I am in the process of making up a vacuum press to try as well rather than a heap of clamps.

Thinned and shaped to roughly Neils suggestion above (Note: NOT intended as a working limb, just testing methods etc. before starting properly). Yes, I know my taper isn't cut exactly straight so don't bother pointing that out







Had a thought then that I could probably use the same method of the router/planing form to reduce the width taper, as my access to a friend with a well fitted woodwork shop is on hold while he's overseas and a jigsaw doesn't really cut accurately enough.

Thinking ahead, I have a moderate amount of glass and resin on hand, and am used to working with it so that's no issue. Am I better off laminating it on the spliced billets before pre-shaping in any way or on the shaped bow before tillering?

Next up is practicing the handle splice and tracking down some proper glue and maybe having a play with some steam or heat bending while I've got a sacrificial limb.

Steve

[Nezwin]

Thinking ahead, I have a moderate amount of glass and resin on hand, and am used to working with it so that's no issue. Am I better off laminating it on the spliced billets before pre-shaping in any way or on the shaped bow before tillering?

Glass cloth & resin makes a functional passive backing, protecting against splinters lifting, etc. I apply before cutting width tapers (to get a clean edge on the cut) but others apply after - it's a bit of six of one, half a dozen of the other, really. If your grain is straight enough, you should be able to get away without a backing.

Make sure the resin is epoxy resin - polyester won't bond properly to the timber. What weight cloth are you using?

Next up is practicing the handle splice and tracking down some proper glue and maybe having a play with some steam or heat bending while I've got a sacrificial limb.

If you've got epoxy resin, you can thicken this (perhaps with fine wood shavings) and this could work as a glue, perhaps. Otherwise Titebond III from Masters is a popular choice for a first time bowyer. Smooth On EA-40 is considered the industry standard, Techniglue is a popular alternative while many other people use marine/industrial epoxies. There's a post in 'Traditional Tackle' discussing the cost differences between using different products, although I believe it is down to personal preference.

Steam & heat bending is interesting but you do need a decent form to get it right, or you can get unequal bends and/or twists. You've got to walk before you run! I'd get this bow shooting before getting too advanced.

[flyonline]

Make sure the resin is epoxy resin - polyester won't bond properly to the timber. What weight cloth are you using?

Yep, have epoxy and have used it to laminate timber and glass before so good to go Have various weights but will most likely use 4oz s-glass which is beautiful stuff to work with and stronger than standard e-glass.

If you've got epoxy resin, you can thicken this (perhaps with fine wood shavings) and this could work as a glue, perhaps. Otherwise Titebond III from Masters is a popular choice for a first time bowyer. Smooth On EA-40 is considered the industry standard, Techniglue is a popular alternative while many other people use marine/industrial epoxies. There's a post in 'Traditional Tackle' discussing the cost differences between using different products, although I believe it is down to personal preference.

Steam & heat bending is interesting but you do need a decent form to get it right, or you can get unequal bends and/or twists. You've got to walk before you run! I'd get this bow shooting before getting too advanced.

There are epoxy specific thickeners (cabosil, talc etc.) but I'm leaning towards Titebond at the moment for ease and cost effectiveness. Only tried bending as it was going to end up as kindling but it did confirm that I will have to back it to be safe.

[Nezwin]

Yep, have epoxy and have used it to laminate timber and glass before so good to go Have various weights but will most likely use 4oz s-glass which is beautiful stuff to work with and stronger than standard e-glass.

Sounds like you may have built some old-skool surfboards... Unidirectional glass is good, if you have it. I remove the crossweave - purely for aesthetics. There's a school of thought that suggests that internal friction with lateral weaves can cause breakdown of the glass eventually, which makes sense, although I imagine it would take several tens of thousands of shots for this to occur.

There are epoxy specific thickeners (cabosil, talc etc.) but I'm leaning towards Titebond at the moment for ease and cost effectiveness.

I use a colloidal silica when I thicken resin but you're right, there's a lot of options. Titebond III is a pretty sound choice though. Post some pics when you're done! Unbraced, braced & full draw are good for understanding the energy profile of the bow.

Neil

[flyonline]

So I haven't completely fallen off the radar, just been restricted in spare time due to wife and 1yr old daughter returning from a couple of months overseas.

I managed to find a source of spotted gum boards, but I had to end up with a handle narrower than I had originally planned, so rather than cut into the riser what's the best way to add a shelf? Shape a piece of timber and glue onto the side? I plan on doing a leather handle so I suppose a leather flap is also an option.

Now to glue up the backing.

[Sabinus]

Yeah mate, a little wedge of wood or even veg tanned leather can be glued on and then sanded to smooth it into the profile of the handle. It doesn't have to be huge, just enough to support an arrow shaft. it just popped into my mind that a wooden golf tee split right down the middle could work....
The other obvious option that many on the forum would suggest, is that you don't bother with a shelf, and shoot off your hand instead. Just make sure that your fletchings are glued down perfectly.

[Nezwin]

Shape a piece of timber and glue onto the side? I plan on doing a leather handle so I suppose a leather flap is also an option.

Either of those should work and like Sabinus said, if you're going to shoot off the hand, make sure your fletchings are 100%.

[flyonline]

No shooting off the hand for the moment, would rather keep my rest fixed as much as possible!