Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

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jordan01233
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Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#1 Post by jordan01233 » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:28 pm

Hello everyone,

Along with a couple of mates, I am planning to make my first bow according to a mollegabet design. From what i can tell, the best woods seem to be hickory, maple or red oak. My friends and I bought tas oak thinking it would do and found out that it was horrible for making bows.

Any advice on where i could source good woods in Sydney? Also, do you have any suggestions on different designs instead of the mollegabet for my first ever bow?

Any help would be greatly appreciated by us.


Thank you,
Jordan

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bigbob
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Re: Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#2 Post by bigbob » Mon Dec 28, 2015 7:52 pm

not sure if he has any left but John Mc Donald [amso128] did have some hickory billets in stock a while back They are too short to use full length but can be z spliced at the handle and will make a great bow. Bunnings sometimes stocked a red hardwood called Masseranduba, but now i think most of their stuff [under forest reds] is mainly eucalyptus of several varieties.a pyramid bow similar to the one I posted on here recently would be much easier as a first bow . I did have some dimensions in that post. The first 3 things to consider in choosing the wood for the bow is grain, grain and grain. go through a whole pile if you have too and select one with the grain running true down the length of the bow.
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Re: Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#3 Post by longbow steve » Tue Dec 29, 2015 5:02 am

Hi jordan, masters have red oak. Cheers steve

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Re: Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#4 Post by Nezwin » Tue Dec 29, 2015 8:30 am

Red Oak from Masters should be a good beginners choice. As Bigbob said, it's all about grain - go through the entire stack and pick out the straightest-grained pieces, which shouldn't need backing.

Building a Molle is on the 'to-do' list, so I'm not sure how hard that might be. Perhaps a standard flatbow might be more suitable? I often have people come & build bows at my place and I always hand them a cheap Red Oak board and they manage a flatbow in a day or two.

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Re: Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#5 Post by Sabinus » Tue Dec 29, 2015 10:49 am

Hi Jordan,

I definitely agree that a pyramid design is the best design to tackle first up. There are some very good 'buildalongs' on the net, and the tillering stage is a bit simpler on a pyramid bow. Also it can be a fast, sweet shooting design.

The mollegabet design looks beautifully simple as most good bows do, but there are hidden subtleties to the design and tillering that may be best left for a bow or two's time.

I would say red oak would provide you with the best mix of cost effectiveness, performance and avaliability for a pyramid bow. Hold out for a board with straight grain, and also for a board that has a good ratio of old/new growth. The 'poor folk bows' site provides a good explanation with photos on choosing a good board, and it illustrates what i was saying about the new/old growth ratio perhaps better than I could explain.

I'm currently building a white oak pyramid bow from white oak billets I sourced at Ottos timbers in Adelaide the other day. I've spliced two billets together and am concentrating on zeroing in on my tiller now. I'll include some photos as i go so you can see how the process is unfolding.

They say you 'aint makin' bows if you ain't breakin' bows', but for someone getting into bow building, I say there's no motivaton better than some early success. Aim for a functional, straightforward, classic design to begin with, then go from there.

Darren

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Re: Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#6 Post by cadet » Fri Jan 01, 2016 10:20 am

Be quick getting red oak from Masters; it looks like they are phasing it out in favour of Vic oak/Tas oak/Mountain ash.
Spotted gum decking isn't hard to find, and can also make a decent bow.

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Re: Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#7 Post by Tracer » Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:11 pm

Hi Jordan. As a fellow beginner bowyer, if you're after something that works easy and unlikely to break (especially with a mollegabet design) you may want to try vertical bamboo decking boards. Most hardware stores over here in Melbourne stock it ungrooved. They are basically 100% straight grain, and are hard to break. They do take a bit of set, so you may find the power a bit lower if you don't put much reflex but are a great stable bow that can be quick if reflexed aggressively.

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Re: Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#8 Post by bigbob » Sun Jan 03, 2016 8:38 pm

re the bamboo floor boards, Unless things have changed recently , vertical bamboo flooring has been replaced by horizontal or strand woven which are of no use at all.Actually the vertical boards are a poor choice as a self bow type as the fibres are re constructed during manufacture, and don't display much of the qualities needed for a all wood bow. As core laminations either in something like a trilam or in a glass backed bow they are ideal as they remain constant for a given 'stack' more so than 'natural wood'which being organic and not engineered is dynamic and variable in outcome.
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Re: Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#9 Post by Gringa Bows » Sun Jan 03, 2016 9:16 pm

i dunno Bob ,i made some all wood bows out of verticalboo boards a few years ago for a couple of grandkids and they were great

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Re: Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#10 Post by bigbob » Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:23 am

yeah Rod, I know it will make a bow, but my point is that there are more desirable woods to use.My experience is that it takes a lot of string follow and has a 'doughy' nature, but i guess it might be a way to get a bow that at least shoots, without tearing timber stacks to pieces looking for the ideal piece of bow timber.
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Re: Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#11 Post by Tracer » Mon Jan 04, 2016 10:52 pm

These things are all true, but a bit less so in the bamboo decking boards as opposed to the floor boards. The decking only comes in vertical laminations, and I think they disrupt the grain less, as well as using less preservative chemicals. True it won't chuck an arrow like hickory or elm, but it's a fairly easy to get material in Vic and is very forgiving to beginners.

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Re: Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#12 Post by hunterguy1991 » Tue Jan 05, 2016 6:36 pm

Just my 2 sense on the bamboo flooring debate. I'm all for beginners getting into making bows without breaking the bank of expensive staves from overseas and using somewhat forgiving materials to make them that are readily available.

However,

I don't approve of beginners making SELF (key word) bows from unbacked boards (or laminated bamboo boards) because I think they give a false sense of security, bamboo in particular. (exception here is a board that follows the rules of a self bow, ie can be reduced to a ring of growth on the back)

Beginner bow makers need to be on here asking all the questions they have and also learning from their FAILURES... one could quite easily stick a string on a sliver of a bamboo board with no tillering at all and call it a bow, and sure it may work like one, but it lacks all of the skills and subtleties in construction that make a stick and string a GOOD bow.

When I started making bows I snapped the first 6 I tried, all unbacked board bows... took me 6 failures to learn about grain orientation and following a growth ring to establish a bows back properly and split staves as bows. Also learned about backings on bows, why they're used and how they're applied (of various materials, both cheap and expensive).

A vertical bamboo board will behave very differently to a timber board with grain violations when strung up, and that could teach bad habits from the material not failing as it may do normally.

I feel that unless you buy a board that can be reduced to a ring of growth, it should get a backing of some sort regardless of what it is and whether it could go without one, purely to build understanding of the principles of bow making. Develop good habits early and enjoy great successes later.

Just my 2 sense on the topic.

Jordan, I very much am looking forward to what you come up with on your first attempt. As you have done already, if you're unsure, ask and we will do our best to help you.

Cheers,

Colin

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Re: Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#13 Post by greybeard » Tue Jan 05, 2016 9:32 pm

Hi Jordan, welcome to Ozbow.

Although there is a lot of information available in various posts you will need to carry out a fair amount of your own research for timber supplies.

There are a number of specialist timber suppliers in and around Sydney so it would be advisable to check out their web sites. Be prepared to travel to get useable timber.

These are two merchants I picked at random.

http://anagote.com/timbers-sydney/

http://www.trendtimbers.com.au/complete-timber-list.php

Outlets such as Bunning’s and Masters do not have much to offer.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#14 Post by Nezwin » Mon Jan 11, 2016 11:35 am

greybeard wrote:Outlets such as Bunning’s and Masters do not have much to offer.
Really????? They're far more accessible for a large majority of the Australian population and stock large quantities of -

- Pole Bamboo
- Spotted Gum
- Occassional Ironbark
- Occassional Massaranduba
- Red Oak, uninspiring but reliable
- Glues, finishes & tools

There is a bowmaker of great respect on this board who could easily produce bows from materials found solely at Bunnings & Masters. His bows are every bit as good as anyone's built with the best materials sourced from specialist & expensive timber suppliers.

I think Jordan01233 represents a bunch of mates looking to put a string to a stick, not people trying to become expert bowmakers. While $100 boards of Maple or Hickory might be right for those with the skill & interest, for a large majority of people out there they're just interested in dipping a toe & making something that works.

Horses for courses, guys, and plenty of people have made a red oak board bow, been happy with it, then left it in the cupboard having ticked off the 'build my own bow' entry to their bucket list.

I'm sure most people would agree, I'd rather advise someone to (potentially) break cheap Red Oak boards than costly, imported Hickory or Maple! A lot of people have very limited experience with woodworking tools - you wouldn't go out and buy premium footy boots if you were just having a kick about with a few mates on a Sunday arvo, nor would you buy a $1000 take-down bow if you're starting target archery. You learn your craft with basic & expendable gear then you work your way up, if you've got the interest & ability to do so. Being a snob about particular timbers and where they're sourced is only going to alienate newcomers, not support them as they learn just how difficult the art of bowmaking truly is.

Weighing in on the bamboo floorboard debate though, I do believe that the only place for processed bamboo in bowmaking is as a core material in laminate bows. So yeah, best stay away from that.

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Re: Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#15 Post by greybeard » Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:40 pm

Nezwin wrote:I think Jordan01233 represents a bunch of mates looking to put a string to a stick, not people trying to become expert bowmakers..........., for a large majority of people out there they're just interested in dipping a toe & making something that works.

Horses for courses, guys, and plenty of people have made a red oak board bow, been happy with it, then left it in the cupboard having ticked off the 'build my own bow' entry to their bucket list.

I'm sure most people would agree, I'd rather advise someone to (potentially) break cheap Red Oak boards than costly, imported Hickory or Maple! A lot of people have very limited experience with woodworking tools. You learn your craft with basic & expendable gear then you work your way up, if you've got the interest & ability to do so.

Being a snob about particular timbers and where they're sourced is only going to alienate newcomers, not support them as they learn just how difficult the art of bowmaking truly is.
Are your comments assumptions or data collected from research?

Jordan and his mates may have a natural ability when it comes to working with hand tools.

How can you successfully learn a craft on materials that are not up to the standard for the particular task? Too many failures and the prospective bowyer will most likely give up.

The biggest obstacle when wanting to make a bow is which timber to use for a particular bow design.

Being a snob has nothing to do with the situation at hand.

The price per lineal metre for spotted gum or red oak from Bunning’s or a specialist timber merchant will be reasonably similar. The bonus is that you get the opportunity to look at what other timbers are available.

Quite often you can pick up a suitable oddment board at a keen price.

I believe that paying a little extra for a more suitable material will increase the chances for success.

For all we know Jordan and his mates may have an unlimited budget for purchasing timber.

Surely it is our responsibility to offer alternatives.
Nezwin wrote:........Weighing in on the bamboo floorboard debate though, I do believe that the only place for processed bamboo in bowmaking is as a core material in laminate bows. So yeah, best stay away from that.
But could also be useful in learning the art of tillering.

Daryl.

I may be a Redneck because I buy my clothing from Big W and Aldi and the forty-eight toilet roll pack from IGA when it is on special.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#16 Post by cadet » Mon Jan 18, 2016 3:46 pm

I must be doing it wrong.
I'm only a beginner, but the only red oak and spotted gum board bows that've failed for me failed because I pushed them to failure. The others - 8 or so I've made, another 6 or so I've helped others make - all unbacked self-bows - have so far survived use in my and others' hands. They've been good practice pieces while I wait for some split elm to dry and season.
I did a lot of reading before I even obtained timber or tools to make sure I understood a few key principles, then chose my boards very carefully for grain flow, and chose, set up and used my tools very carefully to achieve a passable tiller. I've been able to solve most of the problems I've encountered.
To me, backed, laminated etc bows seem a bit fancy, and a bit like cheating for a bowyer. But then I'm a weirdo who likes to shoot with antiques using black powder too.

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Re: Making my 1st bow: need help sourcing wood + more

#17 Post by greybeard » Thu Jan 21, 2016 9:59 pm

cadet wrote:.........I did a lot of reading before I even obtained timber or tools to make sure I understood a few key principles, then chose my boards very carefully for grain flow, and chose, set up and used my tools very carefully to achieve a passable tiller. I've been able to solve most of the problems I've encountered.......
I believe you were successful because you took time to research the subject and were methodical in your approach to bring the project to fruition.
cadet wrote:........To me, backed, laminated etc bows seem a bit fancy, and a bit like cheating for a bowyer........
Necessity as they say is the mother of invention;

Ford, Horace A. Archery, its theory and practice, 2nd. Edition 1859.

I now come to the second part of my subject, namely, the backed bow. From all that can be learnt respecting it, it would appear that its use was not adopted in this country until Archery was in its last state of decline as a weapon of war, when, the bow degenerating into a mere instrument of amusement, the laws relating to the importation of yew staves from foreign countries were evaded, and the supply consequently ceased. It was then that the bowyers hit upon the plan of uniting a tough to an elastic wood, and so managed to make a very efficient weapon out of very inferior materials. This cannot fairly be called an invention of the English bowyers, but an adaptation of the plan which had long been in use amongst the Turks, Persians, Tartars, Chinese, and many other nations, more especially the Laplanders, whose bows were made of two pieces of wood united with isinglass. As far as regards the English backed-bow (this child of necessity), the end of the sixteenth century is given as the date of its introduction, and the Kensals, of Manchester, are named as the first makers—bows of whose make are still in existence and use, and are generally made of Yew, backed with Hickory or Wych-Elm.

cadet wrote:........But then I'm a weirdo who likes to shoot with antiques using black powder too.
You are not alone; I had heaps of fun shooting my black powder .45 cal. plains rifle and .50 cal. Pennsylvania long rifle.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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