Trilam war bow advice.

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BowmanBjorn
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Trilam war bow advice.

#1 Post by BowmanBjorn » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:04 am

Ok,

So I'm having a trilam warbow built for me in the next 2 months. The catch is I live in North Queensland so humidity and warm weather are a factor.

Which timbers wood give a good reliable bow with good performance (see what I did there).

I've been recommended hickory and bamboo trilam.

Target weight is 100#@32".

Now will primarily be used for mucking around trying to make livery arrows go into orbit....

Thanks in advance for your advice.
Centaur Triple carbon elite 2pce 60# @30"
Thunderstick MOAB 50# @30"
Flat line Raptor 45# @30"
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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#2 Post by hunterguy1991 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 8:37 am

Made a fair few of these myself so I thought I should weigh in.

I have some friends over in Europe that are shooting Hickory self warbows and have made the comment that they can lose/gain 10lbs depending on the temperature. All bows do this but it seems to me that Hickory might be quite back for it so maybe not use it as a belly.

Hickory could be used as a backing tho since its only a thin piece used like that. As for a core and belly I'd go for something very dense that wont fluctuate as much with temp and Humidity.

As far as performance goes, if the maker knows what hes doing with lam bows it should shoot very well regardless of timbers.

As a safety precaution tho, id recommend shooting early morning and late arvo ( most moderate times of day temperature wise) and the sun has lost its intensity. This will prevent the bow heating up too much and risking failure.

Will be interested to see how the bow comes out.

Cheers,

Colin

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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#3 Post by greybeard » Wed Jun 17, 2015 11:08 am

BowmanBjorn wrote:....I'm having a trilam warbow built for me ......I've been recommended hickory and bamboo trilam...
I am a little confused, what is the third timber?
hunterguy1991 wrote:Hickory could be used as a backing tho since its only a thin piece used like that. As for a core and belly I'd go for something very dense that wont fluctuate as much with temp and Humidity.
As far as performance goes, if the maker knows what hes doing with lam bows it should shoot very well regardless of timbers.....
I would check with the bowyer to make sure he is using a reputable waterproof epoxy/glue.

Natural wax type polishes may be an option for moisture proofing as a recoat can be easily done on a regular basis.

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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#4 Post by BowmanBjorn » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:34 pm

Thanks for the comments.

The bowyer is very well known in OZ and I trust his ability 100%.

Sorry greybeard hickory/bamboo/hickory.

Hunterguy101 you being in SEQ your probably the closest climate wise to me up here in FNQ. Which timbers have you found to be suitable for trilams and humidity.

Good point on the finish greybeard.
Centaur Triple carbon elite 2pce 60# @30"
Thunderstick MOAB 50# @30"
Flat line Raptor 45# @30"
Norseman Wrath 2pce 54# @30"
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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#5 Post by hunterguy1991 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:46 pm

Is there any particular reason he recommended using Hickory/bamboo/hickory as a combination for the bow?

As I mentioned, I always use very dense belly woods because generally they can handle the stresses the best. Ipe, Lemonwood and Red Ironbark have all proven themselves as good belly woods for warbows but I know a few others that are used in the UK with great success.

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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#6 Post by BowmanBjorn » Wed Jun 17, 2015 12:59 pm

Just a suggestion with a bow he's made which worked well in Mackay.

I liked the idea of bamboo as a core wood because to my thinking it works well in flat bows so figured it would give some added performance in a trilam.

Red iron bark i like the sound of :) I use some for furniture and the i laws have lots of it on their property. Beautiful timber when seasoned and finished.

Hickory back, bamboo core and red iron ark belly would be an attractive combo?
Centaur Triple carbon elite 2pce 60# @30"
Thunderstick MOAB 50# @30"
Flat line Raptor 45# @30"
Norseman Wrath 2pce 54# @30"
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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#7 Post by hunterguy1991 » Wed Jun 17, 2015 1:04 pm

Would be a nice looking bow yes.

Id be going 80" ntn for something at 100lbs as well.

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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#8 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Fri Jun 19, 2015 3:09 am

BowmanBjorn,

If your bow is sealed with a good modern flexible waterproof finish, I see no reason why it should lose any cast at all. Where I live in the Southern RIverina of NSW, it gets well into the mid-40s during summer and quite often. Heat has never affected any of my bows that I have noticed. We are a very low humidity area in summer unlike FNQ of course, but moisture gain or loss depends upon the quality of the sealer you use.

The only bow wood I know of which definitely sinks in hot weather is Yew. I have never had a single problem with any kind of dense hardwood, especially of indigenous species, but I have not tried a large range of them by any means. I do, however have a very large number of old Lemonwood bows from the 1930s and 1940s and some Osage Orange (Maclura pomifera) bows in my collection and they withstand heat very well indeed. But, Lemonwood aka Degame (Calycophyllum candidissimum) is a tropical hardwood and meant to work in heat and high humidity anyway. It was well known to be superior to Yew back in the day of the all-wood bow in that respect, particularly on open target ranges where shade is non-existent. Yew sinks very badly in those conditions.

Any of your local long-fibred hardwoods backed with Hickory should do well in your area I would think. But I would also add that the very many self-Hickory bows I have in my collection hold up very well in the heat too. The stuff is highly hydrophillic if it is not sealed well, but otherwise does not seem affected by the local heat if I shoot one in my yard in the summer heat. All wood bows take some degree of temporary set following shooting, but mine usually return to their original shape pretty quickly when rested, but I also help them by bending them into modest reflex of about 2 or 3 inches immediately after unbracing them without a single instance of damage in the past 30 years of making my own and using those in my collection.

Your bowyer's choice of a core of bamboo will not do anything performance wise for your bow other than very very slightly reduce the limb mass of your bow. Comparing its use to that in flat bows doesn't translate into any equivalent in an ELB. I have made one only all-bamboo laminated bow a la Howard Hill using bamboo bought in from Howard Hill Archery, and despite starting out promisingly, it turned into a dismal failure because of bamboo's exceedingly poor compression qualities causing it to take an absurd amount of set.

If you just like the look of the stuff in your bow, that is a completely different matter and good luck to you. But it just isn't good 'bow wood' on a belly and doesn't improve cast unless there is such a substantial amount of it in a bow that it significantly reduces limb mass. Between fibreglass, it becomes a completely different animal, but generally not as a self-bow or laminated self-bow.

Anyway, my two bob's worth.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#9 Post by BowmanBjorn » Fri Jun 19, 2015 9:52 pm

Thanks a bunch everyone.

The bow has now been ordered so 3 months and i get to practise pulling my arms out of their sockets! after a lot more questions and answers from some more bowyers i've settled on the below bow.

bow ordered is 76" N to N

100# @32"
Hickory back, carbonised bamboo middle laminations and osage orange belly.
horn nocks

i value your input Hunterguy and Dennis! i was surprised to read that you don't believe Bamboo in the core has any appreciable benefit! but i'm happy to take a chance on it. Hunterguy your thoughts on the hickory belly has lead me to go with Osage which i'm pretty happy about as i get to watch it evolve as it ages :)

now to think of a name for her....

regards

Bjorn
Centaur Triple carbon elite 2pce 60# @30"
Thunderstick MOAB 50# @30"
Flat line Raptor 45# @30"
Norseman Wrath 2pce 54# @30"
Norseman trilam ELB 104# @ 32"

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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#10 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:28 pm

Bjorn,

Have a read through my most recent post to Colin here - http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=15617 and see what you make of it.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#11 Post by BowmanBjorn » Fri Jun 19, 2015 10:43 pm

hmmmm interesting. i don't know enough about physics in something like this but i can understand where you are coming from. i would think the bamboo core would act as a more efficient power transfer media between the back and belly so would increase the return rate increasing limb speed. but thats without any actual bases. purely an assumption that bamboo is more efficient at transfuring energy than say a traditional hard wood may be. similar to say carbon fiber being more efficient at transferring energy than fibreglass.

it'll be interesting to shoot this bow along side a similar bow made with a "standard" core lamination and see how it performs.

regards

Bjorn
Centaur Triple carbon elite 2pce 60# @30"
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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#12 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sat Jun 20, 2015 1:20 pm

Bjorn,

Perhaps bamboo has those properties in other applications, but its principal value in bowmaking is its low mass and very high tensile strength as a backing. But it is very poor in compressive strength except where the outer rind is used on the belly. If ordinary rindless laminations are used on the belly, they inevitably take a large set which is prima facie evidence of a significant lack of anility to withstand, let alone transfer stored energy at least from the compression side of the bow.

There are bound to be instances where it has worked of course, but these are the exception, not the rule. The shortcomings of bamboo are well understood in all-wood bowyery.

However, whatever the wood specie, dense or light, if it is placed close to the centre of the bow's limb, it does little or no actual work at all specifically because of the fact of its proximity to the neutral axis of the bow.

Comparing one bamboo cored bow to one other without it is not a reliable predictor upon which to establish a bowmaking principle even as rough estimate. Many identical bows would need to be tested in order to obtain a reliable data base upon which to draw any meaningful conclusions.

Actual limb mass is a far more reliable predictor.

If two bows are compared for velocity/cast, both must have identical dimensions, have equal draw-weights, an equal amount of set and a standard test arrow, then it is far more probable that the bow with the lower limb mass will cast faster because of its higher limb tip speed.

Having a bamboo core lam for cosmetic reasons is a perfectly reasonable thing, but it is not of any mechanical advantage in a bow other than the possibility of a minor decrease in limb mass and even smaller consequent increase in limb speed.

Bamboo is not some kind of magical bow making material imbued with qualities not found in other kinds of bowmaking material.

It has gained this ideal status in modern times from its use by Howard Hill in the 1940s and 1950s. But even he gave it away except as a core material when fibreglass became available in the early 1950s because on its own, it was a poor bowmaking material. Between fibreglass backing and facing, it is one of the best of the core materials because of its low mass.

I will dig out some referenced for you to follow up on this topic and post then here later.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#13 Post by Gilly » Sat Jun 20, 2015 2:22 pm

I am sure your bow will be great!

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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#14 Post by BowmanBjorn » Sat Jun 20, 2015 10:21 pm

thanks for the clear explanation Dennis,

from your post you appear to be referencing the use of bamboo in the belly mostly, i can 100% understand that it would not be optimal in the belly as its compressive strength doesn't suit the task. thankfully for me its not being used as a belly lamination purely as a core lamination with an osage belly lamination.

i'm still unsure if the core material has little or no effect on performance, but i don't have enough knowledge to argue one way or the other.

i've played with bhutanese bows which are made of nothing but Bamboo and they are incredibly effective at launching an arrow. with as you know doubt are aware the national game being shot at 145m at a small target.

even if the only benefit is the reduction in limb mass then its still worth it in my book.

Gill yes i agree i can't wait to get this bow, you know this particular bowyer quite well :)

regards

Bjorn
Centaur Triple carbon elite 2pce 60# @30"
Thunderstick MOAB 50# @30"
Flat line Raptor 45# @30"
Norseman Wrath 2pce 54# @30"
Norseman trilam ELB 104# @ 32"

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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#15 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sun Jun 21, 2015 5:50 pm

Bjorn,

Actually, no, I am not referencing bamboo as a belly material. I have only used that explanation to illustrate its shortcomings. I wanted to address your choice of bamboo as a central lamination and that you seem to believe that it will endow some performance enhancing properties to your bow when used that way.

My explanations are not meant to pooh-pooh your choice of materials rather than to try to explain to you that as a central core lamination close to or on the neutral axis of your bow that it will do no appreciable work in terms of assuming any of either the tension load or compression load of your bow from which all bows derived their power.

The illustration of Bhutanese bows shooting at 145 metres doesn't demonstrate anything. Any half reasonable bow of 20 to 30 lbs can do that, even an all-bamboo bow with a bit set so long as there is enough draw weight.

All I am trying to explain is that so long as the backing material and belly material are sufficient to withstand their respective tension and compression loads, whatever is between these two layers adds to or subtracts nothing from the bow's performance other than mass.

The lower the mass of any bow's limbs, the quicker they will be, and following from that, the greater the cast. Apart from the mass aspect, whatever material is used between the back and belly is of little or no consequence to performance.

Whatever material a person chooses to use in their bow is their rightful choice and their personal business. It doesn't need justifying to anybody.

But if you do justify its use because of certain performance enhancing characteristics you believe it to have, then anybody on Ozbow is entitled to comment on that reasoning and explain where your reasoning may be mistaken.

If the bow as you have ordered it shoots brilliantly, you have my congratulations. If not, you have my commiserations.

Just be aware that in order for any material to perform mechanical work in a bow, it must be placed where it will contribute to tension or compression resistance when the bow is bent and loosed. If it is place away from those areas, it does no mechanical work in a bow other than influencing its limb mass, that's all.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#16 Post by BowmanBjorn » Sun Jun 21, 2015 11:13 pm

Hi Dennis ,

Thanks for your reply I always enjoy reading your posts as i always tend to learn a great deal. I'm only new to this world of traditional archery so the more info the better.

Sorry i read your posts as discussing bamboo as a belly material (mentioned a couple of times) I can certainly see why it would not be suitable in that situation.

I agree that as I'm paying for this thing I could choose to use sheets of toilet paper as laminations if I paid the bowyer enough to build it :) and of course i open myself up to comment by asking peoples opinions and I'm happy for all of the comments particularly when the comments are constructive and considered.

If you read my post as argumentative or disagreeing to your posts I apologise I simply ment that I don't have enough experience or information to argue one way or the other.

The laminations ordered have been built by this particular bowyer a number of times with good results so I'm not too worried about the performance side of this setup. I was only hoping to find options to improve the performance with better wood choices for my climate if they existed. and thanks to hunter guy and yourself I changed the belly lamination to Osage.

I can certainly see your logic in the laminations and how they contribute to work.

If there is no real performance benefit from any timber in the central lamination of a trilam bow, which it appears is the case from your comments. what is the reason behind building a tri laminate bow? Would it not be more suitable to simple have a good back wood and a good belly wood? Alternatively an extremely low mass timber such as balsa in the core would then achieve a greater benefit in reducing limb mass.

Again I'm not arguing against your points I'm purely taking the opportunity to learn as much as possible i hope you take my comments as such.

I will say though you have a unique way of putting information across, much of your info I have read is excellent. I'm not sure if its ment to come across as mildly aggressive or superior but I certainly feel like I'm being spoken down to or being made an example of. Which I'm assuming isn't the case but just your writing style.

Kindest regards

Bjorn
Centaur Triple carbon elite 2pce 60# @30"
Thunderstick MOAB 50# @30"
Flat line Raptor 45# @30"
Norseman Wrath 2pce 54# @30"
Norseman trilam ELB 104# @ 32"

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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#17 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Mon Jun 22, 2015 12:17 am

If you read my post as argumentative or disagreeing to your posts I apologise I simply ment that I don't have enough experience or information to argue one way or the other.
Not in the least Bjorn. I am not that thin-skinned. At no stage thus far has it occurred to me that you may be argumentative, but so what if you were?

If you see points in what I am trying to explain that are inconsistent, you have the clear right to disagree and tell me why and how you disagree. Also, if I am not making myself clear, you should keep returning replies until it is clear to you.

I am never offended by that kind of questioning. I wish more members did so instead of getting irritated when I challenge their arguments and leave the site and malign myself and Jeff Challacombe on other sites. But of course, I will always argue back on the same basis but without the invective if I find fault in a counter argument.

This is never personal. It is debate in order to try to get a point across or prove an explanation. Many people think that if they contradict me which is their right, that I am obliged to accept it as true/proven just because they advance it which is an intellectual nonsense of course, and when I do argue back, they become deeply offended and run away.

I don't mind how strenuously you argue your point so long as the argument is to the point of the issue and not to the person.

The business of including a centre lam in tri-lam bows seems to have originated among the British bowmakers who began using a dense tropical hardwood as a centre lam which was assumed to stiffen an ELB against string follow or set because they were generally using Lemonwood as the compression lam and hickory lam as the tension lam.

I have always challenged this use of a stiffener lam for the reasons I have explained above about the proximity of that lam to the bow's neutral axis. I have had three bows from one prominent British ELB maker which were tri-lams which had hopeless amounts of set which made them miserable performers compared to any of my own self ELBs. I looked for a reason for the large amounts of set these British bows had despite the claim that the hardwood centre lam was a stiffener against excessive set. By set, I am talking about 3.5 to 5 inches on a 72 inch bow.

Clearly, there was something wrong with either the technique or the underlying assumption. After reading up on the work of Clarence Hickman, Paul Klopsteg and Forrest Nagler in their published work in the book - Archery, The Technical Side - and gaining an understanding about the principles of bending beams (bows) and the concept of a longitudinal neutral axis, I could not reconcile the idea of a centre stiffening lam with the engineering concepts those three scientists explained. There are a lot of complicated mathematics in their explanations, but they also had the ability to expound on their 'discoveries' with everyday English - a godsend to we mathematically challenged bowyers.

Hunterguy (Colin) has proposed the idea of the way in which concrete is reinforced centrally away from the tension and compression surfaces of (I presume) concrete columns and such and Scuzz raised the idea of the effects of material non-homogeneity in laminated bows in relations to the position of the neutral axis, I still contend that the neutral axis position is dependent upon the centre of gravity axis of the bow which is also where the neutral axis lies. Therefore, despite the use of non-homogenous materials, the neutral axis will still tend to position itself on the same axis of the line of the centre of gravity. The neutral axis in NOT a fixed position in a beam. Its position depends on the position of the line of the centre of gravity as I understand the principle of bending beams.

Colin is going to contact some of his university tutors on the issue which will be good.
I'm not sure if its ment to come across as mildly aggressive or superior but I certainly feel like I'm being spoken down to or being made an example of. Which I'm assuming isn't the case but just your writing style.
I apologise if I come across as superior or condescending. I never mean my explanations to be a put-down or blowing my own trumpet. It must be my writing style perhaps and perhaps you have put your finger on something of which others find in my writing as well. Please do not confuse 'aggression' with doggedly sticking to the point of an argument. It rarely ever occurs that I am angered by a counter argument unless it becomes personal, but I can get annoyed with what I perceive as intellectual laziness where somebody persistently sticks with a line of thought despite their (not me) not being able or even willing to advance even reasonable supporting arguments to back up their claims and an almost complete unwillingness to consider any alternative. It happens very often on Ozbow unfortunately.

So far as superiority is concerned, it is not something I am conscious of when I write and is certainly not intended. Like myself, there are many of us who have been in this game for a good few decades from back in the days when traditional archery as we understand it almost disappeared with the spread and popularity of the compound bow. It has been a bit of a struggle for us, the 'old men' of trad archery if you like, to resurrect and bring back much of the old knowledge which had gone out of use and was almost lost to archery.

If anything, perhaps we or myself in particular regard ourselves as trad archery's grandfathers passing our archery heritage down to trad archery's grandchildren. Perhaps we talk to newbies like you from that perspective. Collectively, we know a lot and it is very satisfying to us to know that younger folk value what we know. So, perhaps we may seem like grandfathers talking to our grandchildren if that analogy makes sense. We would like to think that what we have re-learned will be preserved by those who come after us.

Anyway, I am sure that you will have a wonderful time with your bow when it arrives. In time, you will probably want to have a go at it yourself and build your own bows, so we are also concerned that those just starting like you do not repeat our mistakes if we can help it.

I wish you well indeed.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Trilam war bow advice.

#18 Post by BowmanBjorn » Mon Jun 22, 2015 5:13 pm

Greatly appreciate your reply Dennis

With the references and inferences you've posted I can understand more at what your explaining and it's now time for me to do some more reading of my own :)

Glad to hear it's only your writing style, not the person behind the key board! I may add that your last post was far more positive in tone :)

Being an early adopter or in this case rediscoverer will always lead to challanges as it's a heart felt passion which not all involved have te same passion or focus for truth I guess you could say!

I look forward to shooting this bow too :) one of these days when the madness of young family life and running a company ease off I'll probably try my hand at a bow but not in the near future sadly.

One of these days maybe we can catch up and loose and arrow or 2.

Regards
Bjorn
Centaur Triple carbon elite 2pce 60# @30"
Thunderstick MOAB 50# @30"
Flat line Raptor 45# @30"
Norseman Wrath 2pce 54# @30"
Norseman trilam ELB 104# @ 32"

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