Hickory, Ipe and Lemonwood...

[hunterguy1991]

Morning all,

I have finally managed (with a bit of help from Daryl) to obtain some Lemonwood and Ipe for a few bows... been looking for a lemonwood source for 6 months now so its been a long time coming.

Having not used either of these timbers previously I figured what better way to test them than in a nice low weight warbow... around 90-100lbs

Got a bit of advice from a well known English bow maker Lee Ankers ( check out his stuff at Heritage bows) with regards to dimensions to achieve this weight so I will get cracking today and hopefully have a nice stave glued up later on.

6mm thick hickory lam for the backing, 6mm thick Ipe core (no taper) and a 18mm thick Lemonwood belly aught to do the trick according to him so that's what i'll use. Bow will be 34mm wide at the handle when finished.

After this experiment i'lll then have a go at a mid weight warbow, around 140lbs by flipping the core and belly timbers or using a new core and Ipe Belly.

More to come as I go with the build.

Colin

[rodlonq]

Looking forward to seeing how it goes Colin.

Cheers... Rod

[hunterguy1991]

Cheers Rod!

Just milling the necessary laminations for the first bow at the moment... glue up shortly. The Ipe has a really strange smell to it when its sawn, not particularly nice either.

Being that I don't have a thicknesser the lams come out a little rough and not spot on the dimensions, but for what im doing they're close enough.

Colin

[Sabinus]

Sounds very interesting mate, I'm sure you're going to nail it. At your recent rate of working, I guess we'll see the finished article by tomorrow morning or thereabouts!?

Darren

[hunterguy1991]

Cheers Darren!! I will be doing my best on it that's for sure.

Haha cant work on the heavy ones quite as fast as the target weight ones... Exercising the limbs between rasping really takes it out of you. That and this is my first go at a reflexed warbow so it will be slow and steady...

If I'm lucky i'll work all day tomorrow and have it tillered for shooting in in the arvo, but we'll see.

Colin

[hunterguy1991]

Here is my first progress photos for this build...

Just shots of the stave after glue up.

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Stave held a full inch of reflex after being taken out of the form which im pretty happy with. Will help to make it a nice quick/long shooter.

Colin

[hunterguy1991]

Right, well, slowly making some progress on this one... lack of band saw made profiling it so much fun!

After a few hours of rasping I got the back crowned, the belly round done and some nock grooves filed in...

First look at it on the tiller, holding a heap of reflex!!|

IMGP1019 (640x425).jpg (156.36 KiB) Viewed 9129 times

I think its not quite sitting on the tiller tree straight tho as the left tip sits up a bit higher than the right. Need to check the stand and make sure its all square before I go further.

Second shot is the initial tiny bend I gave it to see what it feels like... 50lbs was the result and the tips only moved about 2 inches.

IMGP1020 (640x425).jpg (158.58 KiB) Viewed 9129 times

Slow and steady now...

Colin

[greybeard]

Colin, the bow appears to be coming along at a steady pace. Did you find that the lemonwood works quite easily with sand paper and scrapers?

Found the following on the Richard Head Longbow site;

"If Lemonwood has any failings it is its tendency to follow the string. This tendency can be overcome to a large extent by the addition of a centre lamination sandwiched between the Hickory or Bamboo and Lemonwood."

http://www.english-longbow.co.uk/cat20.htm

Daryl.

[hunterguy1991]

Cheers Daryl,

Yes slow and steady... I have pushed the limbs up to about 70 lbs which bends them nearly to the 4 inch line (second one down) at the tips and its looking pretty even.

Had to stop the tillering for the day, my back is too sore from weights yesterday to exercise the limbs after a rasp/scrape.

The lemonwood is a dream to work, planes well, rasps easily, sands up very nice. Yet to do any scraping but I think it will come up well.

I have spoken to Richard briefly on some of the English longbow pages on facebook. Lee who I asked advice on about this particular bow has produced one using a purple heart core lam that still holds reflex even after full tiller and shooting in, so I imagine the Ipe will be much the same. he recommended 40mm of reflex on the glue up, I put 35-37mm into it so its close.

The main reason I used a core strip and made it a tri-lam was to save some of the lemonwood and also try the Ipe to see what it was like to work, (very very hard stuff!!!)

[cmoore]

Lookin good so far Colin!
If you put a bit more of that 'V' shaped reflex in you'd end up with a gullwing shaped war bow. ...now that would be a sight to behold

[hunterguy1991]

Cheers Cam,

It will come round a nice circular bend mate... maybe a little whipped like me and Dennis like em. I'm expecting it to hold a bit of reflex even after tillering but we'll see tomorrow or Thursday.

[bigbob]

Looking good Colin. Have heard that some people get a bad reaction when working with ipe. Have you noticed any reactions?

[hunterguy1991]

Thanks Bob!

Nope, no reactions or anything like that thus far. Did get a decent splinter out of it tho... bloody sharp edges on freshly cut boards.

[greybeard]

Nope, no reactions or anything like that thus far.......

Colin, it may not hurt to take some basic precautions.

Allergies/Toxicity: Although severe reactions are quite uncommon, Ipe has been reported to cause skin, eye, and respiratory irritation, as well as other effects such as headaches, asthma-like symptoms, and/or disturbance of vision.

Daryl.

[hunterguy1991]

Always wear a dust mask when milling all of my timber. Now that I'm tillering Im not touching the Ipe, just the lemonwood. Will go back to a dust mask when I sand the final bow as per normal.

[hunterguy1991]

Managed a tiny bit of work today.

Doing my best not to break any of the 3 rules of bow making... hardest one on the warbows is not going over desired draw weight at any stage during early tillering.

Photo shows the tips down almost 4 inches past flat and the bow is pulling 80lbs...

80 lbs, near 4 inch tip deflec. (640x425).jpg (158.1 KiB) Viewed 9066 times

Fair bit to come off the belly yet. Cant wait to get it to brace height tho, then it will be easy.

Once the tips are coming down about 6-7 inches and its only around 80lbs I will make up a short string and get it to brace height, then continue tillering.

[hunterguy1991]

Got a bit more done on it today...

Finally at brace of about 5.5 inches with a short string (as pictured).

First brace 5.5 inches (640x425).jpg (165.16 KiB) Viewed 9056 times

It really doesn't like being strung ( because of the reflex) and id say it takes about 70-80lbs just to get the short string on at the moment.

Initial pull after brace gave 75lbs @18 inches which works out following the same Draw Force curve (neglecting losses from set) to 147lbs @ 30"...

Just a little more than I wanted!

Will just continue to slowly sink it now and I have been warned that the Lemonwood will lose a fair bit of weight after about 26 inches so have to keep an eye on that.

Colin

[mikaluger]

Looking good big fella..

[hunterguy1991]

Finally got to do a bit more work on this one today!!

Finished the tillering and she has come in bang on 100lbs @ 30 inches (exactly what I wanted) so I'm stoked. Tillering to an exact weight took some more time than going for "really heavy" and a little luck as well but was well worth it.

Will have some photos of the bow up a bit later when there's someone here to man the camera for me. (hard to hold 100 lbs with 1 hand and a camera still with the other.

So far I have shot 6 arrows through it and its mighty fast! I think this one will spit a standard out around the same as my 120 ash, but time and testing will tell.

Colin

[perry]

Impressed again Colin, look forward to more Pics

regards Jacko

[hunterguy1991]

Thanks Perry!

Not sure how well this picture will come out but will post it till I can get a better one.

This was taken from a video of some of the first shots with the bow. The arrow is 30" socket to shoulder (still got a little to go in the draw) and weighs 78grams.

First shots, Sheaf arrow.jpg (59.66 KiB) Viewed 9004 times

I haven't been shooting the big bows regularly so my draw length is a tad short of where it should be but will get back to it with a few rounds.

Bow is very smooth to draw and seems fast to shoot, not that it would bother me if it wasn't. I'm just happy it does shoot and I can have some fun with it

Will try to get some better photos this arvo or tomorrow.

Colin

[greybeard]

Colin, it is indeed good news that the new bow is performing well.

If your basic design remained unchanged the performance increase may be the result of timber combinations and lamination thicknesses.

On the surface it would appear that you may have achieved an efficiency gain although you would have to gather the data to verify the fact.

At this stage have you formed an opion, good or bad or indifferent regarding the lemonwood and Ipe.

Daryl.

[hunterguy1991]

Thanks Daryl,

As this is the first attempt I've had at a reflexed warbow I cant comment without more testing but id say there is a marked increase in stored energy as well as an increase in the energy delivery rate on the power stroke of this particular bow over one which is flat glued.

I wont know till I compare this to another bow that's flat glued (next week hopefully) but there are several factors that will play a part in how it shoots.

I will be gluing up another bow with the Ipe and Lemonwood lams swapped (Ipe belly and lemonwood core) to try and get 140lbs@30 later this week and will be able to comment further after its made (or broken).

Impressions on the lemonwood however are all positive as far as I'm concerned. It is very easy to work with a multitude of tools and seems to be quite forgiving in how it works in the bows. I will definitely be keeping stocks of it on hand for any Lam ELB orders I may get in the future. It makes a very attractive bow and when glued in reflex I believe it will also perform quite well.

Colin

[hunterguy1991]

Well it took a long while but I finally got a hold of some horn for the tips on this bow and I got them glued on today!

Think I've finally got a handle on a really good way to get them to fit on nice and tightly so this bow should come out a treat when they're all done. Just need to spend some time shaping them up after the glue is well and truly set.

Then its on to final sanding and finishing the bow.

[Dennis La Varenne]

Colin,

I too read that comment on Lemonwood by Richard Head but find it a bit bemusing since none of the very many Lemonwood bows in my collection, once straightened, have taken any kind of appreciable set which I have not left in them. Back in the all-wood bow days, it was renowned for being very stable in heat for instance when Yew would sink badly during a day's target shooting. Here I am talking about both of Robert Elmer's books on Archery, L. E. Stemmler's little booklets (I have 3 separate editions of them) on bowmaking and the book by Paul H. Gordon entitled 'The New Archery' (1939) where, particularly in this last book, it was so highly regarded for its shooting qualities and low set that it really ought to cost far more than it did back then.

I have had 3 ELBs from a prominent English bowyer which had bellies of Lemonwood and all 3 had a dreadful amount of set. Comparing these bows to what I have in my collection which includes a few self-Lemonwood ELBs, I can only surmise that the bows made by this one particular bowmaker were badly overstrained in the making.

Both Stemmler and Gordon remark that there are two kinds of Lemonwood, Lowland and Highland, of which the Highland stuff is far superior and recognisable by its having a blue-grey tinge to its colouring. The lowland stuff was quite white turning to butter yellow but without the tinge. That stuff did not stand up to compression nearly as well as the highland stuff and was not sold by reputable bowyers back then.

I can only surmise from Richard Head's comment that the English bowyers are not aware of the difference and that may well be the source of their problem with it. However, back in its heyday, it was well known to be almost the only bow wood which did not seem to fret or chrysal during normal and some abnormal usage, but it did seem to take a very slightly greater set than very good Yew. However, the very good Yew had to be from a very superior log to be noticeably better.

Love your bow though, and I am hanging out until it is finished.

[hunterguy1991]

Cheers for the info Dennis. I'd say the lemonwood I have is lowland stuff because it is very buttery yellow with no grey tinge.

this bow is a great performer tho, having been shot and still retaining about 10mm of reflex. I think that's a testament to what the lemonwood can do if you know how to use it. I also think that the use of Ipe as a core in the bow has helped it retain its reflex. But that's just my opinion.

ive been waiting on the weather to get the finish on but it didn't play the game and now I'm away from home till Wednesday next week. Will get some photos up as soon as its all done.

Colin

[Dennis La Varenne]

Colin,

For what it is worth, my personal opinion so far as I understand the theory of neutral axes is that a centralised 'stiffener' does not work at all. Central stiffeners actually do nothing except take a ride between the back and belly of a bow where the genuine mechanical forces tension and compression occur.

For a central stiffener to work, the beam bending principles still apply. It would require that the belly side of the stiffener assumed a significant proportion of the load occuring on the belly side of the bow and conversely that the backing side of the stiffener assumes a similar proportion of the tension load of the bow's back.

As both of these surfaces are a long way from either surface and located very close to the neutral axis of the bow, that lamination does little or no appreciable work at all.

To function as assumed, a central stiffener must do the same kind of work as the back and belly surfaces of a bow. That is a basic principle of bending beams.

Bending loads on surfaces vary in proportion to the distance from the neutral axis of the beam. Bending loads decrease at the level of any hypothetical surface the closer that surface comes to the neutral axis.

I think that the English bowyers are quite wrong and should re-read their Hickman, Klopsteg and Nagler.

[hunterguy1991]

Dennis you are correct in you thinking that the stresses are proportional to the distance from the neutral axis, however, when composites are laminated the varying stiffness of the materials comes in to play similar to how steel takes the tensile load in a concrete beam rather than the concrete itself.

I feel that the Ipe in the core of this bow being protected from splintering by the hickory lam provides alot of stiffness to the bow.

I way to test this would be making a bow with the same back and belly but a lighter core and see what the reflex and cast is like.

[scuzz]

Hi Guys,

I think you have a good point hunterguy. An assumption in most beams calculations is that the material is homogeneous. If you assumed that the timber was homogeneous (despite being generalised as non-homogeneous) for calculations sake, it would definitely become non-homogeneous when laminating different materials together. i.e. ipe, hickory, lemonwood.
The effect this has on the neutral axis is unknown to me but it would be interesting if some kind of shift factor results.

Something else I have read on US forums. Some bowyers making tri-lam, Dean Torges type of bows believe that the 3rd lamination helps create more D/R due to the reduction of stiffness of having thinner laminations during the gluing process. While I realise the english longbow is a different bow type, could it be possible that the impressive reflex sustained is due to this?

Also hunterguy, I'm looking to seeing the finished product

Scuzz

[Dennis La Varenne]

Colin,

I would indeed be interested to know if your reference to reinforced concrete applied also to bows. My entire understanding of forces acting on bow limbs derives from the work of Hickman, Klopsteg and Nagler as you know, and your example doesn't seem to have been considered in therir work. But engineering has moved on since those early days.

Just the same, until otherwise proven, I will err on the side of established work. It would certainly be very interesting to do the relevant testing of your hypothesis however and if you do any testing, I would love to know the outcome or even if the data trended in the direction of your hypothesis. It is an interesting idea.

In respect of the common claim of the English bowyers about stiffening lams, the three ELBs i have had from one of them showed that that claim was disappointingly ineffectual.

Scuzz' example above about the benefit of stiffening lams in Torges style bows is interesting, but I wonder if the amount of retained deflex-reflex is a product of gluing up the lams in a deflex-reflex form just as you are doing with your ELBs (ie, the Perry Reflexing Principle of reversing the bending load on the outer surfaces in the stave at glue-up)?

Also, I understand the idea of non-homogeneity between materials, but in bows, wouldn't that tend merely to move the neutral axis toward the denser material where the longitudinal centre of gravity axis lies?

The Pommie bowyers seem to still be gluing theirs up on straight forms for the most part, which is why I remain suspicious of the 'stiffener' lam claim. They could, like you, do their glue-ups on reflexed forms both with and without stiffeners in order to be able to assess whether or not any retained reflex was an artifact of the reflexed form or the stiffener, or what proportion of each applied.