New stave for self bow

How to make a Bow, a String or a Set of Arrows. Making equipment & tools for use in Traditional Archery and Bowhunting.

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Message
Author
Old Soul
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cairns

New stave for self bow

#1 Post by Old Soul » Fri Feb 06, 2015 11:58 am

So attached are some pics of my next stave “The one” that will hopefully leave me satisfied for a while. I thought I might kind of do a bit of a build along and get some opinions and so forth along the way. It will be a long process as time is of a premium but I will get it done.

As you can see the stave has a slight reflex in it from drying, which is a good thing. One of my early considerations is that the pith wood is just a bit too thick to leave the back untouched which I would love to be able to do because it means so much less work. I will probably need to remove some wood though and as you will be able to see the surface is far from flat. There are little lumps bumps and grooves all over it. Previous experience tells me that it makes it very hard to chase a growth ring out without violating it somewhere. And then there is that little knot protruding from the surface which may have to be included in the limb, will reassess that later.

My next step is to just clean up the edges and see just how thick the pith wood is. What I do know from previous work with this timber is that the pith wood is very stringy and quite a bit softer than the heart wood.
Attachments
Thickness of pithwood and reflex in stave
Thickness of pithwood and reflex in stave
P2060177 (Small).JPG (59.49 KiB) Viewed 7592 times
Knot
Knot
P2060181 (Small).JPG (42.58 KiB) Viewed 7592 times
Wavey/groovey back
Wavey/groovey back
P2060176 (Small).JPG (54.57 KiB) Viewed 7592 times

Hamish
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:42 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: New stave for self bow

#2 Post by Hamish » Fri Feb 06, 2015 5:48 pm

Hi, What species of tree do you have there?

User avatar
perry
Posts: 1925
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:59 pm
Location: morayfield qld australia

Re: New stave for self bow

#3 Post by perry » Fri Feb 06, 2015 7:33 pm

I rarely worry about thinning Sap Wood. Sure the Bows may look better with the contrasting Sap and Core Timber full length but they don't shoot any better in my experience with Aussie Hardwoods.

regards Jacko
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

Old Soul
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cairns

Re: New stave for self bow

#4 Post by Old Soul » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:15 pm

Hamish wrote:Hi, What species of tree do you have there?
Hamish, I think it is Acacia Mangium. There are so many closely related acaia's it is hard to tell some times but from all the research I have done into it that is the best fit I have come up with so far.

Old Soul
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cairns

Re: New stave for self bow

#5 Post by Old Soul » Sat Feb 07, 2015 12:36 pm

Hi Perry, I think I may have viewed one of your previous bows or read a comment from you about leaving all the sap wood on once before and it certainly grabbed my attention. I still have another stave that is big enough that I may just split it in two yet and I am deffinitly going to give it a go. The properties between the heart wood and sap wood are quite different though, just in my experience in working with these pieces I have.

I have already started thinning out the sap wood on this particular peace and seem to be doing ok this time 3/4 of the way through now. One of the advantages with the faster growing tropical timbers, the growth rings are quite a bit thicker.

I see you are in Morayfield, I used to live in Burpengary. According to news you appear to have some real nice people down your way.
Attachments
P2060186.JPG
P2060186.JPG (54.58 KiB) Viewed 7547 times
P2060184.JPG
P2060184.JPG (54.87 KiB) Viewed 7547 times

User avatar
perry
Posts: 1925
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:59 pm
Location: morayfield qld australia

Re: New stave for self bow

#6 Post by perry » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:28 pm

Moronfield or Cabbo for Morayfield and Caboolture. When we first moved up here 12 Years ago you could Buy Townhouses for $90 000, great for a Single income Family. On our first night up here I took my Mrs into Morayfield Shopping Centre to top up our new Fridge, as we reached the top of the Escalator at Coles end the full impact of what we had done became apparent, Banjo Music playing, Wall to Toothless Beavans, Oceans of Flanno's, Black Stove Pipe Jeans, Black Thongs, dirty Feet all answering to Dazza and Shazza :lol: Thankfully we are several Blocks away from Moon Street, a real wild part of Town :confused:

Funny thing last Year my 16 Year old flounced in from School- I asked how Her Day was and She explained that during a Social Science Class they where Studying the different Socio Economic Groups in Australia and She was mortified to realise Her Dad was a Cashed Up Bogan !!! I responded with mock indignation that in Queensland it's Cashed Up Beavan, not impressed She Flounced off down the Hallway :lol:

I've only used the likes of Box, Lancewood, Gidgee, Wattles, Brigalow, Mulga, Dead Finish and Osage Orange where I did not bother with thinning Sap Wood. Wattle is the fastest growing down here, all of them grown in dryer conditions than up North. Don't know if Osage grown in the USA is any different due to the location grown but I was surprised it coped just fine with leaving the Sap Wood untouched. Occasionally I'd buy a Spotted Gum, Red / Grey Iron Bark Board with plenty of Sap Wood in the Board but the Fibre and Grain ran straight and they made top Bows despite unequal Sap and Heart Wood in the Bow.

A Mate of mine used to make D Belly Bows using Brigalow, Mulga and Lancewood all growing between Tara and St George and would thin the Sap Wood, growth Rings violated regularly and never had one fail. I know another who harvested his Timber up Mt Isa way and was making good shooting Mulga Bows with the Sapwood completely removed. The most consistently fine grained Spotted Gum I've ever seen all comes from the Timber growing on the Northern side of the New England Plantations.

I was reading a few nights back of some 8000 year old Yew Bows found that where just Heartwood. The best Bows from both types of Soapwood in my experience are made when harvested from Sandy environments. It is interesting the role that region and environment can play in the characteristics of the same Species of Timber. Best thing to do is make Sawdust with all the timbers at your disposal and see what happens. I eagerly await your results Old Soul
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

Old Soul
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cairns

Re: New stave for self bow

#7 Post by Old Soul » Sun Feb 08, 2015 10:55 am

Morayfield was heading that way before I left, Deception Bay was always the problem town up until then. I went to high school at Dakabin. Every town has a Moon St though, Murray St is one of ours and I'm sure you have heard of it recently. Tell yor daughter there are plenty worse things than cashed up bevans/bogans.

The timber I am working with has come from a lower area just above sea level, kind of sandy, sunbtropcal environment beside a creek lines that only runs during our wet season.

Do you have any pictures of your work? Especially if you have any of Acacia.

Also I wanted to ask how your Dead Finish bow worked out. I don't have access to any but I came accross it whilst looking up other stuff and aside from anything else it looked like a beautiful timber, didn't look like finding a straight piece for a bow would be easy though.

User avatar
perry
Posts: 1925
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:59 pm
Location: morayfield qld australia

Re: New stave for self bow

#8 Post by perry » Sun Feb 08, 2015 1:37 pm

I hope Greybeard weighs into this thread, he has recently been making Bows using North Queensland Timbers, Python Wood was one he used from memory

This is the only Pic I have on hand that shows the Heart and Sap Wood Ratio. This Bow was made back in 98 or 99 and is still Shooting. Its Brigalow which is in the Acacia Family.
tooledleatherbackquiver-1.JPG
tooledleatherbackquiver-1.JPG (59.25 KiB) Viewed 7519 times
This is another old Bow I have that still Shoots really well, Soapwood, Alphitonia petriei made in 96. Backed with Kangaroo Rawhide. The back of the Bow is trashed, grub holes, grub tracks and huge knots. Kangaroo Rawhide is impressive stuff.
SoapwoodDecember1996-2.JPG
SoapwoodDecember1996-2.JPG (38.02 KiB) Viewed 7519 times
I don't make many Bows anymore, no need as a well made Selfbow is extremely durable and I have moved on to learning to make other Gear. I have an unknown Species of Wattle Stave I cut recently in the Northern New England put aside for a Bow making demonstration I'm doing at a Renaissance Fair mid Year. Around Easter I am heading back down there and will harvest another, you have me thinking it might be nice to make one with a thin layer of Sap Wood just for looks. Back in the 90's I was churned out Hundreds of Bows, many given away, many more tested to destruction, pushing the limits to see what I could learn. Back then just as now Folks used to get all exited about Oversea's Timbers like Osage and other American and European Timber. I know Folks who imported Yew Staves at enormous cost - non of them shoot any better then Aussie Timber when you use the correct design and tiller

I cut that Dead Finish / Silver Gidgee outback of Adavale in 96, gorgeous Purple Heartwood and a creamy Yellow Sap Wood. It made a nice Bow, mostly Sapwood, long time ago now can't remember what happened to it, no photo's.

Keep us posted Old Soul

regards Jacko
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

JoeLethbridge
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:11 pm
Location: Gordonvale, QLD

Re: New stave for self bow

#9 Post by JoeLethbridge » Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:57 pm

Scott, It's Joe from Rob Nicolls!
It's great to 'find' you on here! I did a google search on Acacia Magnium, and several pictures shows wattles that I recognized from around our place.

Might be worth investigating, as the look-a-likes are very straight with untwisted bark, generally 4" to 10 in diameter.

Joe Lethbridge (the character bow -maker)

Old Soul
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cairns

Re: New stave for self bow

#10 Post by Old Soul » Tue Feb 10, 2015 5:57 pm

Hey Joe,

Great to see you went straight to it and had a look for sme. That particular species is very common in the area and as you have seen can offer some nice straight staves. I know that you will do some good work with what ever you harvest. The timber you will find is fairly stable when drying, thin it down as best you can and seal the back and ends and you should be right. Keep me updated, and post some of your work, it is worth posting.

User avatar
Flatliner
Posts: 449
Joined: Fri Apr 08, 2011 6:12 pm
Location: Gordonvale NTH QLD

Re: New stave for self bow

#11 Post by Flatliner » Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:45 am

Old Soul wrote: Keep me updated, and post some of your work, it is worth posting.
Hear Hear.

Rob.
The shortest distance between two points is a FLATLINE
ImageEmail; robnicoll(at)bigpond(dot)com
www.flatlinebows.com.au

JoeLethbridge
Posts: 98
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2011 4:11 pm
Location: Gordonvale, QLD

Re: New stave for self bow

#12 Post by JoeLethbridge » Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:35 pm

Scott,
A couple of weeks ago, I cut a small stave (5" or so across) of that Acacia wood that's supposedly Mangium, carried it back to the house and split it very cleanly. Rather pleased, I then carried the stave all around to house to show it to dad. I told him that it was apparently acacia mangium, and that it was highly respected for bow wood by skilled bowyers. He listened to me rambling on, took on look at the stave and said, "Oh you mean Sally Wattle (that i had never even thought to use), those ****ing things, you can cut as many of them as you want. Get rid of em all!".

So i think i have a very neat supply of new timber to experiment with. Have you found it to get compression failures easily?

Cheers, Joe.

BTW- if anyone considers this to be hacking OldSoul's thread, I'll happily continue this elsewhere on the forum.

Old Soul
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cairns

Re: New stave for self bow

#13 Post by Old Soul » Sun Feb 22, 2015 5:02 pm

Hi Joe,

Your dad is right, it is also called Sally wattle. There are a few wattles similar in appearenec that are also called Sally wattle and a few other common names as well. As far as its resistance to compression I could not properly answer it. The second bow I tried building from it developed a compression fracture at about mid limb on the lower limb and this was a pyramid style bow with a crested belly, it shot well for a while. But to be honest I feel that the compression fracture was more a result of impatient and crude tillering practice. I have since made other bows from it and made them a little flatter and wider and have had no problem in that department, my tillering skills have considerably improved as well. I also like to heat treat the belly which as you will know helps to resist compression.

Good luck with the stave, I would love to see your progress on it at some stage. Now you are just going to have to be patient and let it dry well enough before you go too hard at it. Keep me posted.

User avatar
perry
Posts: 1925
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 9:59 pm
Location: morayfield qld australia

Re: New stave for self bow

#14 Post by perry » Mon Feb 23, 2015 7:11 am

Back in the 90's Glenn Newell was making a lot of Bows using Wattle. He found broad Limb designs with a Lenticular Belly where the most suitable. The coolest looking and best shooting in my view was a Bow Design from Africa. I have posted a Link below with a line drawing of it. I have some Footage on VHS of him shooting a Pig at the Camp Quality Charity Bowhunt up on Toomba Station with a Wattle Bow also, not sure but it may well be that African Paddle Bow. Lovely thing to Shoot. I wonder if he still has it. Will have to ring him and see

https://books.google.com.au/books?id=Xn ... ws&f=false

Profile wise the Andaman Island Bow was very similar but they used an Asymmetrical Tiller. The Profile is still an intriguing Design.
"To my deep morticication my father once said to me, 'You care for nothing but shooting, dogs and rat catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family.' "

- Charles Darwin

Old Soul
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cairns

Re: New stave for self bow

#15 Post by Old Soul » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:16 pm

So I must apologise as I kind of dropped off the grid for quite some time. I have moved from Cairns to Esk and have been down here for just over 6 months now getting settled in, froze my ass of on arrival. Prior to leaving Cairns I was able to finish the self bow that I had set out to complete and catch up with rob to check out its performance before I left. Just FYI Rob, I have been spying on your work that you have posted recently, looks like the black palm more than grabbed your interest, some awesome work as usual as well, wish I could go gather some more with you, I think I know some spots outside of the area you spoke of.

I wanted to post some photo's of the completed bow so that it didn't look like I gave up after my last bow explosion. I have managed to finally produce a functional hunting bow that I must say I am quite proud of. Since completing it I have fed hundreds of arrows through it with no hint of concern for failure, no checks cracks or frets. Moving to Esk I have even had the opportunity to get out after some deer with it on a number of occasions. I have seen deer each time I have been out, or more like they have seen me and then I have seen them running away from me. So that is my next challenge, a red deer with primitive gear and soon I will get to experience my first roar, very excited.

So the bow draws in the low to mid 60# @ 26 inch draw. It is not backed with anything but I have used tannin stain from the heart wood just to hide the glaring white pith wood from the critters that I plan to hunt. No fancy nocks or backing as I wanted it to be as natural and hunting functional as possible.

I have attached some photo's of the process and the end result, hope you enjoy. Sorry the photo's are kind of in the reverse order to what they should be.
Attachments
The tannin camo came out alright, so I thought anyway.
The tannin camo came out alright, so I thought anyway.
P6270081 - Copy.JPG (151.77 KiB) Viewed 7193 times
After shooting it in, didn't take too much set.
After shooting it in, didn't take too much set.
P6270079 - Copy.JPG (38.48 KiB) Viewed 7193 times
Tiller doesn't appear too bad, some small adjustments made.
Tiller doesn't appear too bad, some small adjustments made.
P5170002 - Copy.JPG (87.72 KiB) Viewed 7193 times
Little fella giving me a hand to check the tiller. No tiller chart or graph here, just have to eyeball it.
Little fella giving me a hand to check the tiller. No tiller chart or graph here, just have to eyeball it.
P5020425.JPG (60.79 KiB) Viewed 7193 times
Tannin staining
Tannin staining
P3100283.JPG (76.89 KiB) Viewed 7193 times
Shaping the billet with a draw knife
Shaping the billet with a draw knife
P2210218.JPG (60.07 KiB) Viewed 7193 times

User avatar
bigbob
Posts: 4098
Joined: Sat Jul 10, 2010 8:55 pm
Location: sunshine coast

Re: New stave for self bow

#16 Post by bigbob » Fri Jan 29, 2016 1:52 pm

good result! tiller looks ok too maybe just a slight amount near fades, but that could be my jaundiced eye.Good one!
nil illigitimo in desperandum carborundum
razorbows.com

User avatar
Nezwin
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:38 pm
Location: Temora, NSW

Re: New stave for self bow

#17 Post by Nezwin » Fri Jan 29, 2016 2:30 pm

Not bad at all for no tillering stick! Simple design, well done, by the looks of things. If you're using it to hunt, all that matters is energy into the prey from the arrowhead.

Good luck with the hunt! Bit warm up Esk way, come down south if you get a little hot :lol:

User avatar
Gringa Bows
Posts: 6331
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2007 7:09 pm
Location: Bundaberg QLD

Re: New stave for self bow

#18 Post by Gringa Bows » Fri Jan 29, 2016 3:48 pm

Looks good

User avatar
greybeard
Supporter
Supporter
Posts: 2992
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 9:11 am
Location: Logan City QLD

Re: New stave for self bow

#19 Post by greybeard » Sat Jan 30, 2016 6:24 pm

Looks like a good result.

What method did you use to recurve the tips?

It would appear that the tips line up at full draw so if they return at an equal rate there should be no major issues.

Generally, if the bow is gentle in the hand after loosing an arrow the tiller should be close to being correct.

One needs to compensate for bow design i.e. is the arrow pass at true centre or some distance above centre.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

Old Soul
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cairns

Re: New stave for self bow

#20 Post by Old Soul » Sun Jan 31, 2016 7:48 pm

Hey Nezwin, yep a little hot right now but compared to Cairns not too bad.

Daryl, on this occasion I boiled the tips but I tend to prefer dry heat with oil, trick is just to take your time to heat the timber without scorching it. One thing is for certain, every time I make a bow or attempt to make one as the case often is, I learn something new. Nothing like actually doing something to learn.

User avatar
Nezwin
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2014 7:38 pm
Location: Temora, NSW

Re: New stave for self bow

#21 Post by Nezwin » Mon Feb 01, 2016 8:52 am

Old Soul wrote:Hey Nezwin, yep a little hot right now but compared to Cairns not too bad.

Daryl, on this occasion I boiled the tips but I tend to prefer dry heat with oil, trick is just to take your time to heat the timber without scorching it. One thing is for certain, every time I make a bow or attempt to make one as the case often is, I learn something new. Nothing like actually doing something to learn.
I spent 2-3 years up in Cairns and the Gulf Savannah. Been working my way slowly south ever since, trying to find that elusive semi-European weather that I grew up with. I had a little chuckle when you said Esk was cold - Cairns was unbearably hot for me!

Can't say I've ever used steam for bending but I've found dry heat with peanut oil to be a winning combo for timbers with SG less than about 0.8.

Old Soul
Posts: 21
Joined: Mon Nov 03, 2014 2:37 pm
Location: Cairns

Re: New stave for self bow

#22 Post by Old Soul » Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:44 pm

Cairns eventually got too hot for me to mate, kind of nice to feel the cold occasionally. Certainly looking forward to hunting in it anyway.

I made a bow from the sister stave of this bow when it was still slightly green. I used dry heat to form it, it was amazing it was almost like rubber.

Hamish
Posts: 309
Joined: Wed Oct 18, 2006 7:42 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: New stave for self bow

#23 Post by Hamish » Tue Feb 02, 2016 11:04 am

Yep, that one turned out lovely.

Chace01
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2016 8:57 pm

Re: New stave for self bow

#24 Post by Chace01 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 7:15 am

Anyone here selling self bows or staves?

Post Reply