Another Tri lam ELB....

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mikaluger
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Another Tri lam ELB....

#1 Post by mikaluger » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:15 pm

Same as the others......but a little better.
Just finished this bow for a young man for his birthday. Hickory backed tri -lam, wenge core and Malas belly............... 57lb@28" AMO. Delivery tomorrow. Happy birthday Lester!!!!
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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#2 Post by cmoore » Fri Nov 28, 2014 11:17 pm

Beautiful work as always mick! Im.sure he'll be a happy chappy :biggrin:
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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#3 Post by bigbob » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:59 am

Great work Mick!. Sure the young fella will be stoked.Using Wenge as a core lam have you noticed any weight difference in the outcome compared to say'boo or other woods.I did a recurve with wenge as a belly lam and it came in way over weight.
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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#4 Post by Gringa Bows » Sat Nov 29, 2014 10:13 am

looks good mate,he'll be wrapped :wink:

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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#5 Post by greybeard » Sat Nov 29, 2014 3:20 pm

Another good looking bow Mick, Lester should be very happy with the result.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#6 Post by mikaluger » Sat Nov 29, 2014 8:02 pm

Thanks Guys,
I am glad to report Lester was a very happy chap, and was more than happy with the bow.
All is good in the world.

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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#7 Post by Hamish » Tue Dec 02, 2014 1:59 pm

Another lovely effort, you have had a very productive year, and still the best part of a month to go.
Hamish.

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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#8 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Fri Dec 05, 2014 11:21 pm

Mick,

Apart from appearance, do you find any genuine performance improvement with the tri-lam method of bowmaking. I think I have stated elsewhere that I cannot see any particular benefit to have a very dense hardwood as a medial lamination adding unnecessary mass to the limbs as I see it. However I have never made one but I have had two Bickerstaffes with Purpleheart medial lams which were both noticeably slow for draw weight compare to bows I had made myself.

My idea on the tri-lam bow would have been to use a very low mass high shear wood for the medial lam, Hickory or similar high tensile strength wood for the back and the dense more compression resistent hardwood for the belly lam, but having the dense medial lam seems to be a universal preference for reasons I cannot fathom. Making a tri-lam bow with a low mass medial lam would also tend to produce a bow with much lower limb mass for draw weight and hypothetically greater limb tip speed I would have thought.

I am also tending toward to making my ELB style bows with the following cross-section because of the fact that such a cross-section brings the neutral plane much closer to central axis of the bow limb equalising the tension-compression force distribution between the bow's back and belly. This bow has a stack of 87% and well violated sapwood growth rings which would form longitudinal lines along the bow's back.
MR bow cross-section.png
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Dennis La Varénne

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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#9 Post by greybeard » Sat Dec 06, 2014 11:47 am

Dennis, in the overall scheme of things the difference in core mass is miniscule and I would be looking at possible string follow in relation to the use of hard wood cores.

Dimensions to calculate core mass were as follows;

Length 72”, width at centre 27 mm, width at tips 13.5 mm, core thickness at centre 8 mm and at tips 4 mm.

With regard to core mass the difference between Wenge [1918 lbs per c/m] and New Guinea Rosewood, my preferred choice [1433 lbs per c/m] yields a difference of 1.15 ozs in the core.

I believe 1.15 ozs is of little consequence when spread over the length of the limb compared to the additional mass placed at the tips of the bow when horn nocks are applied.

Limb timing will be out if bowyers do not compensate for the mass difference between the larger upper horn nock and the smaller lower horn nock.

It would appear that Mick used the smaller horn nocks for the upper and lower tips.
Dennis La Varenne wrote:...Apart from appearance, do you find any genuine performance improvement with the tri-lam method of bowmaking.....
Personally I believe a bi-laminate construction is a superior option. Having said that at present I do not have the numbers to back up the statement.
Dennis La Varenne wrote:.... However I have never made one but I have had two Bickerstaffes with Purpleheart medial lams which were both noticeably slow for draw weight compare to bows I had made myself....
I repaired a Bickerstaffe tri-lam for a friend and from memory it had a parrallel core. What was noticable is that the belly timber runs out very quickly towards the tips.

Bickerstaffe bows appear to be notorious for string follow.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#10 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:10 am

Daryl,

I take your point about the tapered vs the parallel mid-lam and relative masses, but on a pure technicality - presuming that the lower the limb mass the quicker the limb speed, all else being equal - it just makes more sense to me to have a low(est possible) mass centre lam for that specific reason. My own preference would have been to have the Wenge as the belly lam instead, but of course, the aesthetic thing is lost if that was the case.

I noticed that Mick has used small horns at both ends instead of the trad Victorian fashion. He has made this bow in the MR fashion with a well cambered back AND belly similar to the cross-section pic I posted as I now do. From purely military-practical point of view, the extravagant horns on the Victorian era bows (see Hugh Soar's books) would have been broken in seconds on a battlefield where you just cannot have your soldiers babying them. I think he is on the mark with his horns - just large enough to do the job and nothing more without being too bulbous.

On a side note, having trawled through as many YouTube sites on shooting the MR style bow as I have been able to find, those blokes over there all seem to have their bows styled in the 'classic(?????)' D-section when the actual MR bows mostly have the ovoid section in the pic above. It makes me wonder how they can still see D-section bows when every picture I can find of actual MR bows shows ovoid sections.

Back to Bickerstaffe, after my experience of his bows, I consider that the terrible string follow which his bows inevitably have is an inevitable function of a dense hardwood core material. I have never been able to find a hardwood cored ELB which has moderate string follow unless Mick's bow is the first. But . . . all his bows are classically D-sectioned too and perhaps THAT is the worse culprit in combination with the hardwood centre lam.

Well, Mick, how much set has that bow taken so far??? The ovoid section may be the secret to straighter ELBs. My last go is Yew and I changed the section from U to ovoid and it is as straight as a die so far. I still need to round the back more though in my opinion after I am happy with the gaping holes I had to fill (gulp!!!).
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#11 Post by mikaluger » Sun Dec 07, 2014 3:59 pm

Hi Guy's,

This is what I have found making these tri lams.

First of all, the wenge core.
I used the wenge because when i started to make bows I read somewhere that a fibreous hardwood is suitable for core wood and when I was at the timber yard the fella had a plank of damaged wenge going cheap and i bought it! it has made numerous bows. And I have just run out of that original supply. It has worked well, and all my tri lams have come out well with this as the core wood. Aesthetically it does look good, it takes glue well and is extremely tough. To be honest, I not not even look at it's properties. I just used it to see what would happen.

I use the Malas Decking as belly wood.
When I use it on an elb, I have to make a tri lam as it is not thick enough (19mm) to do a Duo lam.

With the last 2 bows I have made an interesting discovery with the Malas. These last 2 bows i have shaped the belly as usual, like Dennis says mary rose profile. Crowned back and more oval shaped belly. Like a squashed "D". Usually I leave it like that, and then tiller, but now after I have acheived this shape I then flatten out the belly, from the handle to the tips.
Since I have started doing this, two things have happened............. the bows has much less string follow and is noticebly faster. I can also get the bow alot closer to a nominated bow weight. I also floor tiller the bow and get it straight to a low 4"-5" brace, and then continue tillering. I dont use a long string anymore.
This bow had maintained the same minimal string follow, about 3/4", since coming of the tiller. I will see Lester again early next year and measure it again.

I like the smaller tips. I use the pre shaped tips then shape them how I like them. They do their job, and dont slow the bow tips down. I think they look better as well.

Thanks,
Mick.

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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#12 Post by greybeard » Mon Dec 08, 2014 2:08 pm

Hi Mick, if you have a timber combination that works, stick with it but don’t be afraid to experiment with other timbers.
Dennis La Varenne wrote:....Back to Bickerstaffe, after my experience of his bows, I consider that the terrible string follow which his bows inevitably have is an inevitable function of a dense hardwood core material. I have never been able to find a hardwood cored ELB which has moderate string .....
Re Bickerstaffe bows their tri-laminates are flat laid and after gluing up are held together with packaging tape and strips of rubber, approximately three minutes into the video clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMdFH_G3tKo

The following is an interesting comment made by a prominent English bowyer Richard Head.

“If Lemonwood has any failings it is its tendency to follow the string. This tendency can be overcome to a large extent by the addition of a centre lamination sandwiched between the Hickory and or Bamboo and Lemonwood. We taper the centre lamination to ensure the ratio between the different woods remains the same throughout the length of the bow.”

Quite a few English bowyers appear to use lemonwood [Degame] as a belly material.

As a point of interest the 72 inch lemonwood [Degame] medieval selfbow I finished recently has 15mm of string follow after resting.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#13 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Mon Dec 08, 2014 8:39 pm

Mick,

When you flatten out the belly, is that flat flat or with a very shallow camber. If it is dead flat, I can perfectly understand why there is so little string follow because of the much wider surface to withstand the compression. Also, tillering a bow by removing wood from a cambered surface is much easier and quicker to achieve and I sometimes wonder if that was one of the reasons that the ovoid-section longbow was around for so long - ie. it was much easier and quicker to make. Robert Elmer writing in 'Target Archery' mentions that after using heat to straighten out his bows after a season of shooting, would have an increase in draw weight after straightening which he sank by removing the crown from the belly and flattening it somewhat to the great improvement of the bow's cast.

Daryl,
I am a bit surprised by Bickerstaffe's comments about Lemonwood. I have close to 100 Lemonwood bows in my collection and some had serious string follow, but only in the one limb, suggesting that the bow had been stood on end for a prolonged period in a humid atmosphere. When I have straightened them up with my heat treatment so that both limbs are the same, I leave them in repose for an hour or two and they do not resume the original set. I have one here made by Indian Archery which had a severe set and it now has a set of 7/8" rested and 1 1/2" after shooting. I have shot this bow hundreds and hundreds of times drawing it out to 28 inches training myself to shoot mediaeval English style and it has not shown the slightest inclination to take on more set that it now has. It has remarkable cast with 9.5gn/lb arrows and holds well under at 35m with a mouth level anchor.

Also, in the little books on bowmaking which Stemmler published back in the late 1920s and 1930s (The Archery Workshop), he mentions that there are two kinds of Lemonwood - highland and lowland varieties. The highland stuff is much harder and denser and shows some blueish-grey discolouration in boards of that wood. The lowland stuff does not and is much less elastic. I have noticed this difference in the Lemonwood bows in my collection too. Weight for weight, those bows with the blue-grey discolouration are much quicker and stiffer than those which do not have the discolouration. Stemmler also considered that Lemonwood was badly under-rated in those times. It was the near equivalent to Yew for cast and with none of Yew's problems, only a fraction of the cost of a Yew stave or billets, could be easily planed in any direction and far more likely to result in a working bow than either Yew or Osage without the same amount of skill required.

So, perhaps Bickerstaffe's do not know about the difference in variety and what to look for. The beauty of Lemonwood, know for ages past is that it doesn't fret for some reason, at least from the stresses from shooting as a bow.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#14 Post by greybeard » Tue Dec 09, 2014 6:51 pm

Dennis La Varenne wrote:........Stemmler published back in the late 1920s and 1930s he mentions that there are two kinds of Lemonwood - highland and lowland varieties. The highland stuff is much harder and denser and shows some blueish-grey discolouration in boards of that wood. The lowland stuff does not and is much less elastic. I have noticed this difference in the Lemonwood bows in my collection too. Weight for weight, those bows with the blue-grey discolouration are much quicker and stiffer than those which do not have the discolouration....
There are five species of Degame so how do we know which ones are being referred to;

Calycophyllum candidissimum - Cuba
Calycophyllum acreanum Ducke - Amazon Region
Calycophyllum multiflorum Gris. - Argentina, Paraguay, Brazil
Calycophyllum Ducke - Amazon Region
Calycophyllum spruceanum Benth. - Amazon Region.

Apparently Calycophyllum candidissimum from Cuba is the preferred bow material.
Dennis La Varenne wrote:........I am a bit surprised by Bickerstaffe's comments about Lemonwood.....
Or did you mean Richard Head.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

Dennis La Varenne
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Location: Tocumwal, NSW. Australia

Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#15 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:39 pm

Daryl,
Or did you mean Richard Head.
You are quite right. I should have said Richard Head.

The main thing which Stemmler was talking about was the Lemonwood available in American lumber yards which had the blue-grey discolouration. He specifically refers to it as Highland Lemonwood from the Cuban mountains, but back then, they weren't specific as to species in their descriptions as we are today although on page 38 he does refer to Callycophyllum candidissimum. In another of his editions of 'The Archery Workshop' (there were three editions), he mentions that he deliberately sought out Lemonwood from mountain grown stock for his bowmaking business and, by inference, it seems that the lumber merchants knew exactly what he was looking for.

Anyway, there is an interesting passage in 'Archery - The Technical Side' supporting Mick's finding above. It is too long to reproduce here, but if you can find a copy online, look at pages 43 (para beginning "In most woods . . . " and 44 (ending with para "At the present time . . . "). The 'conventional bow' referred to is the Victorian ELB style bow with Roman arched belly. At the time of writing this paper, the flatbow had not come into common use and was very much still a new invention.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#16 Post by Hamish » Wed Dec 10, 2014 8:35 am

A little bit of reflex in the glue up gets rid of any stringfollow issues with lemonwood for elbs. A little reflex is the best approach for many other tropical woods.
I use a contrasting wood for the core in tri lams just because its pretty. Maple, beech, or oak ( yew was also used by Victorian era bowyers) would all work very well as a core wood for resistance to shear and being strong in general without being very dense.

Hamish.

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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#17 Post by greybeard » Wed Dec 10, 2014 7:04 pm

Dennis La Varenne wrote:....... The 'conventional bow' referred to is the Victorian ELB style bow with Roman arched belly......
Quote from Horace Ford mid 1800's [Victorian Era].

"In shape, the bow should be full in the centre, and taper gradually to each horn; not bend in the hand, or the cast will be deficient, and it will most likely jar in addition. (See plate 111.) A perfectly graduated bend from a stiff centre to each horn is best.

Some self-yew bows are naturally reflexed others quite straight, and others, again, follow the string.

The reflexed are more pleasing to the eye, but liable to the above objection of jarring. Those which follow the string a little are the most pleasant to use."
Horace Ford Longbow Illustration.jpg
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Hamish wrote:I use a contrasting wood for the core in tri lams just because its pretty. Maple, beech, or oak ( yew was also used by Victorian era bowyers) would all work very well as a core wood for resistance to shear and being strong in general without being very dense.
I can't remember seeing them on Ozbow so can you post some photos of your work?

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

Hamish
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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#18 Post by Hamish » Thu Dec 11, 2014 1:09 pm

Hi Daryl, you won't have seen them on Ozbow as I am pretty computer illiterate on posting pictures.
I'm pretty sure you would have seen some at Wisemans Ferry about 3-5 years ago, I used to go with there with Longbow Steve, and I have met you in person a couple of times, so you would probably recognise me if you saw me, but just don't know me by my name. He might have some pictures of my work to post on my behalf.
I have taken a range of bows to show there, several times: osage, yew and Australian lancewood(acacia shirleyi) selfbows, and hickory backed saffronheart(looks like lemonwood but is a brighter yellow, and is denser) with hand tapered core laminations of purpleheart.

I made 2 bows from 19mm lemonwood reeded decking about a year ago. The belly lams end up 16mm once the reeding has been taken off with a thicknessed, so they need a hickory backing and a core to bulk the up enough in the grip area. The elb is about 1" wide, 15/16" deep at the handle, with a parallel core of bullet wood 72" ntn. Flatbow has a thin core of wenge, and a glued on riser and is 1& 3/4" wide at the fades, 64"ntn. Both staves had about 1.5-2" of glued in reflex. Longbow has about 1/2" of rested reflex, and is pretty straight just after shooting. The flatbow has 1" or more of rested reflex, and still has some reflex when freshly shot and then unstrung. Both bows are 45lbs @28" from memory.
I haven't come across a stick of lemonwood deep enough to make a self bow yet. But I have made one out of bulletwood, 78", 1" wide limbs, elb. It took a large amount of set, 2 & 3/4", despite having well tillered limbs and never being pulled more than its target weight during tillering. It is a real dog to shoot with its long, dense limbs. Back bulletwood with a bit of hickory and give it a bit of reflex and it makes a nice, low set shooter of any design.

Hamish

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Re: Another Tri lam ELB....

#19 Post by greybeard » Thu Dec 11, 2014 6:51 pm

Hamish wrote:......I'm pretty sure you would have seen some at Wisemans Ferry about 3-5 years ago, I used to go with there with Longbow Steve, and I have met you in person a couple of times, so you would probably recognise me if you saw me, but just don't know me by my name...
Thanks Hamish, at times the memory is not as good as I would hope for, possibly I may have met you at Hunter Valley as well.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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