No Wood!

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Sabinus
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No Wood!

#1 Post by Sabinus » Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:27 pm

Hey guys, has anyone else here ever had the time and urge to make a bow - and found they have no access to a piece of suitable timber?
Day one of my precious week off, and I was looking forward to putting last week's breakage behind me, and last week's hard-won lessons to good use, by getting out to our only supplier of 'exotic' timber here in Adelaide and picking up their only remaining hickory stave, and getting home and into some 'sawdust production.'

On getting there, and viewing said 'bowstave', I found a 2x2inchx7foot piece of timber that I wouldn't even consign to making a trailer load of barbeque skewers from- full of knots and featuring a sublime, straight grained section of....yep.....probably about 18 inches. Apparently they have plenty more hickory lumber in their stacks, but no chance of anyone getting among them to find a stave for me for a couple of weeks at least.......My 'quick fix' option would be driving 6 hours or so to the state's only Masters store in Mt Gambier (!?) for some red oak - but take the petrol into account and I'm probably just as well off ordering a pair of osage billets from the U.S. for similar money!

Please excuse the rant, I know this is a real tragedy of the first-world variety......but I want to make a bloody bow! I don't often say this, but o to be american! :cry: even their disposable pallets are made of hickory! I've begun to appraise the living and healthy apple and elm trees in my backyard with a new speculative gleam in my eye... and if trees could look nervous, these ones could likely be......on the other hand,might just be time to get my ball of yarn and go looking for a fallen eucalypt branch!

Darren

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Re: No Wood!

#2 Post by greybeard » Mon Nov 17, 2014 3:59 pm

Sabinus wrote:......and viewing said 'bowstave', I found a 2x2inchx7foot piece of timber that I wouldn't even consign to making a trailer load of barbeque skewers from- full of knots and featuring a sublime, straight grained section of....yep.....probably about 18 inches......
If you can get hold of some pole bamboo to back it with you will be amazed with what you can get away with.

At the moment I am making Degame [lemonwood] sanding dust.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

Sabinus
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Re: No Wood!

#3 Post by Sabinus » Mon Nov 17, 2014 4:45 pm

Have you just returned from Cuba or something, Daryl?! Don't be a tease! :smile:

A fair point regarding the bamboo, and maybe i shouldn't be so picky, but for $110, even in the bow timber desert that is SA, i think it's fair to expect a little more than what was on show today. I'm also under the impression that preparing pole bamboo for use as a backing may be a slightly foolhardy undertaking with a workshop consisting of a japanese rasp and a trestle table! Jesting aside, would you say that processing a bamboo pole into suitably flat laminations with the most basic hand tools is an acheivable pursuit?

Darren

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Re: No Wood!

#4 Post by greybeard » Mon Nov 17, 2014 5:49 pm

Sabinus wrote:Have you just returned from Cuba or something, Daryl?!......
I got it from, read the post;

http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15226

I am salvaging the rails from the pallet bases the milled timber is shipped on.

The bases are about five meters long and about 70cms wide, [they resemble a ladder], the timber averages 45 x 50 mm in cross section.

Although the timber is free it is hard work pulling the bases apart.

Their quality milled boards arrive in February 2015 and 140 x 45 mm will retail at about $23.00 per lineal metre, what a bargain!!
Sabinus wrote:......but for $110, even in the bow timber desert that is SA, i think it's fair to expect a little more than what was on show today......
Should there be a decimal point between the 1 and 0 in the price? if not the supplier should be hung up by the short and curlies.

I can buy hickory 50 x 150 x 2700 for $160.00 but at times supply is scarce.
Sabinus wrote:.......I'm also under the impression that preparing pole bamboo for use as a backing may be a slightly foolhardy undertaking with a workshop consisting of a japanese rasp and a trestle table! Jesting aside, would you say that processing a bamboo pole into suitably flat laminations with the most basic hand tools is an acheivable pursuit?
Until I could afford power tools for the task I used the following hand tools. The spokeshave is about 90 years old and still has the original blade.
Spokeshave.jpg.jpg
Spokeshave.jpg.jpg (51.04 KiB) Viewed 7695 times
Sanding Stick.JPG
Sanding Stick.JPG (62.48 KiB) Viewed 7695 times
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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yeoman
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Re: No Wood!

#5 Post by yeoman » Mon Nov 17, 2014 6:19 pm

With a bit of pole bamboo, you can back a mighty awful piece of timber and get a ripper bow from it. Super-dry your hickory (put it in a car parked in the sun all day) and back it with bamboo, and it will work wonders.

I did my first dozen or so bamboo backings with a Stanley Surform rasp. So a Japanese rasp should be possible too. In fact, Japanese bowyers have been doing it by hand for centuries.

Power tools don't make it possible, they make it easy.

Now. On to wood. You should be able to go to any mitre 10, Bunnings, or what-have-you and find some spotted gum and/or ironbark decking. If not, a specialty decking/flooring place should be able to sell you some 84 x 19 mm stock for no more than $15 a meter. Mine costs about $9 I think. Again, with a bamboo backing, almost any board from these species will do.

There's still plenty of time to get a bow done.
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Re: No Wood!

#6 Post by Sabinus » Mon Nov 17, 2014 9:06 pm

Daryl- there is no decimal point mate. $110. Two bows if you are fortunate.

Dave- I know you've helped scores of people to make their first bow with spotted gum and ironbark, but I keep hearing about people who think they've done some nice work, only to find chrysalls in the belly of bows made from these woods.

Would you say that gluing in a few inches of reflex to a bamboo/spotted gum lamination helps to protect the belly from being crushed in compression by such a tough backing as bamboo? After such encouraging results in heat tempering/reflexing my last hickory bow, I feel like I have a higher 'threshold of satisfaction' to satisfy now in terms of not just accepting 2'' of set, or other worse symptoms of compression-weak wood.

Darren

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Re: No Wood!

#7 Post by yeoman » Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:52 am

Spotted gum and ironbark are certainly not compression weak woods. They have a huge capacity to resist compression.

The peculiar quality of ironbark to sometimes show frets is an unusual one. I had a long, long longbow of ironbark that got frets with less than an inch and a half of set. It wasn't over stressed, it was just something that happened. And of all the bows I've made, it's only happened once, on that self bow.

Gluing in a couple of inches of reflex is an eminently good idea. These two woods truly shine when treated such.
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Re: No Wood!

#8 Post by Labasy » Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:37 am

Hi Darren

Yes I live in the western suburbs of Melbourne and have had the same problems finding suitable timber.

I actually got a Hickory stave and a rock maple stave from I am guessing who you are talking about (otto's) and had a courier pick them up and ship them to me here.

The timber was very expensive but in the end I couldn't be bothered looking around anymore.

Lucky I didn't have to pay for the courier as I did it through my work.

Cheers

Glen

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Re: No Wood!

#9 Post by greybeard » Tue Nov 18, 2014 10:38 am

Sabinus wrote:......even in the bow timber desert that is SA, i think it's fair to expect a little more than what was on show today.....
Hi Darren, I get the impression you are some distance from major civilization.

Do you know anyone in Adelaide who could check out the following timber supplier for you.

Australian Timbers Ltd
273 Magill Road
Trinity Gardens SA 5068
Ph: (08) 8332 2666
Fax: (08) 8332 0825

141-145 Bedford Street
Gillman SA 5013
Tel: (08) 8341 2095
Fax: (08) 8341 2336

They appear to have a better range of timbers compared to a hardware store but freight could be a killer.

http://www.australiantimbers.com/produc ... -products/

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

Sabinus
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Re: No Wood!

#10 Post by Sabinus » Tue Nov 18, 2014 7:33 pm

Dave- Thanks for straightening me out re spotted gum and iron bark- i'd heard about the occasional fret issue and made the wrong pressumptions. Seems like one of these woods teamed up with bamboo will be my next bow. And busting to create some reflex of the 'glued in' variety!

Glen- yes you guessed right mate. The last hickory stave i got there was absolutely satisfactory. Paying top dollar for the only good timber in town is fair enough-i had my wallet ready. But paying top dollar for the crook old log i saw yesterday's not on. I'm glad your dealings with them have gone well, they are a good business. Just ask Joe to run an eyeball over what ever you order so he can verify that your material is bow-worthy. The fact you need to freight your timber from SA makes me think I should whinge slightly less! good luck with it all.

Daryl - I had to giggle mate - truth is I live about 35 minutes from the CBD! But yeah, Masters is still in the process of establishing any kind of foothold here, and Bunnings seems to be blind to any timber that's not radiata! In broadening my scope to try a couple of Aussie timbers though, supply shouldn't be a massive issue as all the flooring suppliers come into play and we have many of those. I will check out Australian Timbers on Magill Road. How chastened would I be if they were the missing piece of the puzzle, and I'd needed someone from Queensland to inform me of them!!? :mrgreen:

Thanks for the comments and assistance everyone.
Darren

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Re: No Wood!

#11 Post by greybeard » Wed Nov 19, 2014 7:09 pm

Hi Darren,

Australian Timbers are listing European Beech, compared to Pacific Yew the numbers look favourable.

I have a feeling that the numbers for Yew refer to the heartwood so it may be a misleading number as far as bow material is concerned if late wood is not taken into account.

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-ide ... ean-beech/

Common Name(s): European Beech
Scientific Name: Fagus sylvatica
Distribution: Europe
Tree Size: 100-130 ft (30-40 m) tall, 3-5 ft (1-1.5 m) trunk diameter
Average Dried Weight: 44 lbs/ft3 (710 kg/m3)
Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .53, .71
Janka Hardness: 1,450 lbf (6,460 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 15,970 lbf/in2 (110.1 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 2,075,000 lbf/in2 (14.31 GPa)
Crushing Strength: 8,270 lbf/in2 (57.0 MPa)
Shrinkage: Radial: 5.7%, Tangential: 11.6%, Volumetric: 17.3%, T/R Ratio: 2.0


Common Name(s): Pacific Yew, Oregon Yew
Scientific Name: Taxus brevifolia
Distribution: Pacific Northwest North America
Tree Size: 30-50 ft (10-15 m) tall, 1-2 ft (.3-.6 m) trunk diameter
Average Dried Weight: 44 lbs/ft3 (705 kg/m3)
Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .60, .71
Janka Hardness: 1,600 lbf (7,120 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 15,200 lbf/in2 (104.8 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 1,350,000 lbf/in2 (9.31 GPa)
Crushing Strength: 8,100 lbf/in2 (55.9 MPa)
Shrinkage: Radial: 4.0%, Tangential: 5.4%, Volumetric: 9.7%, T/R Ratio: 1.4

I think it could be worth a try.

Just for comparison Degame/Lemonwood.

Common Name(s): Lemonwood, Degame
Scientific Name: Calycophyllum candidissimum
Distribution: Cuba and Central America
Tree Size: 40-80 ft (12-24 m) tall, 1-2 ft (.3-.6 m) trunk diameter
Average Dried Weight: 51 lbs/ft3 (810 kg/m3)
Specific Gravity (Basic, 12% MC): .67, .81
Janka Hardness: 1,880 lbf (8,350 N)
Modulus of Rupture: 22,100 lbf/in2 (152.4 MPa)
Elastic Modulus: 2,284,000 lbf/in2 (15,75 GPa)
Crushing Strength: 9,790 lbf/in2 (67.5 MPa)
Shrinkage: Radial: 4.8%, Tangential: 8.6%, Volumetric: 13.2%, T/R Ratio: 1.8

I have found dealing with dedicated timber merchants is a far more rewarding than wasting time with the likes of Bunning's and Masters.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: No Wood!

#12 Post by yeoman » Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:34 pm

While Beech is worth a try, and there is a small amount of reporting of people using it with success, I'd be wary of using a wood just because its published properties are the same or similar to a known good bow wood. Reason being the numbers are the results of tests not designed to be beneficial for us bowyers.

The amount of strain a wood can take, in conjunction with its MoE (published value actually works here) are the best indicators of a good bow wood. Problem is the allowable strain is very sub-maximal, and tests are done to maximal limits.

Just out of interest, here is a list of northern hemisphere woods with an allowable strain as good or better than Yew:

Cedar, Red
Ash
Bay
Cedar, Red
Lemonwood
Locust, Black
Maple
Maple, Vine
Oak, White
Osage Orange
Teak
Wenge
Maple, rock

The Red Cedar surprised me, but its stiffness is much lower than Yew so is not as good a wood though its allowable strain is higher.

Back to Ironbark and Hickory:

I tested some Ironbark samples, and found that in terms of MoE, worst Ironbark is as good as best Hickory. Now, in terms of bending stress, Ironbark has a higher stiffness, but a slightly lower allowable strain, than Hickory. This results in the allowable bending stress being roughly similar (though Ironbark wins on average) across both timbers.

So don't go thinking our Ironbark is compression weak. My best tested sample of Ironbark can blow most samples of Hickory right out of the water. This sample was a crowned sample from a split stave too.

The biggest difference between the two is that Hickory is disproportionately strong in tension, and Ironbark is relatively less strong in tension. It still makes fine selfbows, and awesome boo-backed bows.

I just had a look at the product list of your local timber merchant. I would hunt carefully for suitable boards of these species:

Cherry
Walnut
Maple

The Maple especially: look for a nice bog board with perfect grain and use it for backings. You'll get far more bows out of it that way, as Maple is a great backing timber.

Black Walnut has awesome allowable strain (just a hair less than average Yew) and higher stiffness. An excellent combination of qualities.
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Re: No Wood!

#13 Post by greybeard » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:41 pm

yeoman wrote:.....The Maple especially: look for a nice bog board with perfect grain and use it for backings.......
Dave, are you referring to Queensland maple or American hard maple?

Any of the American hard maple that I have been able to obtain had the grain running all over the place.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: No Wood!

#14 Post by yeoman » Wed Nov 19, 2014 9:42 pm

The hard maple. I have no experience or knowledge of the native variety.
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Re: No Wood!

#15 Post by Nezwin » Fri Nov 21, 2014 5:21 pm

yeoman wrote:While Beech is worth a try, and there is a small amount of reporting of people using it with success, I'd be wary of using a wood just because its published properties are the same or similar to a known good bow wood. Reason being the numbers are the results of tests not designed to be beneficial for us bowyers.

The amount of strain a wood can take, in conjunction with its MoE (published value actually works here) are the best indicators of a good bow wood. Problem is the allowable strain is very sub-maximal, and tests are done to maximal limits.

Just out of interest, here is a list of northern hemisphere woods with an allowable strain as good or better than Yew:

Cedar, Red
Ash
Bay
Cedar, Red
Lemonwood
Locust, Black
Maple
Maple, Vine
Oak, White
Osage Orange
Teak
Wenge
Maple, rock

The Red Cedar surprised me, but its stiffness is much lower than Yew so is not as good a wood though its allowable strain is higher.

Back to Ironbark and Hickory:

I tested some Ironbark samples, and found that in terms of MoE, worst Ironbark is as good as best Hickory. Now, in terms of bending stress, Ironbark has a higher stiffness, but a slightly lower allowable strain, than Hickory. This results in the allowable bending stress being roughly similar (though Ironbark wins on average) across both timbers.

So don't go thinking our Ironbark is compression weak. My best tested sample of Ironbark can blow most samples of Hickory right out of the water. This sample was a crowned sample from a split stave too.

The biggest difference between the two is that Hickory is disproportionately strong in tension, and Ironbark is relatively less strong in tension. It still makes fine selfbows, and awesome boo-backed bows.

I just had a look at the product list of your local timber merchant. I would hunt carefully for suitable boards of these species:

Cherry
Walnut
Maple

The Maple especially: look for a nice bog board with perfect grain and use it for backings. You'll get far more bows out of it that way, as Maple is a great backing timber.

Black Walnut has awesome allowable strain (just a hair less than average Yew) and higher stiffness. An excellent combination of qualities.
An excellent post, Dave. It highlights, to me at least, that the Ironbark/Hickory combination that HunterGuy has been working with might be a real winning combination in general beyond ELB's. It also makes me regret how I was using Fibreglass Cloth backed Maple back in Canada!

I've recently received my Traditional Bowyers Bibles which, while heavily criticised in some forums, mentions Juniper as a passable bow wood. I have access to a quantity of this - how does it measure up on by your analysis? And do you know, in numbers, how pole bamboo measures up against Hickory & Maple in tension? Forgive me for being lazy but it would be good to get your insight!

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Re: No Wood!

#16 Post by yeoman » Fri Nov 21, 2014 6:14 pm

Do you mean to say the books are criticised, or Juniper is highly criticised? I'm sorrry to say I have no test data, nor personal experience with Juniper to know how it might go.

If memory serves, Ishi the last Yahi Indian used sinew backed Juniper for his bows.
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Re: No Wood!

#17 Post by Nezwin » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:15 pm

I read some criticism of the books from a particularly respected member of the forum, with some agreement from others, but I've found them to be not too bad at all, personally.

Sinew baked juniper, eh? Might be worth an effort. I'll have to read up on what limb width Ishi used, maybe back with bamboo.

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Re: No Wood!

#18 Post by yeoman » Fri Nov 21, 2014 9:32 pm

I wouldn't do it with boo. It'd overpower Juniper.

TBB is still one of my most prized collection of books. I don't care what criticisms people have of them now: without those books, the great majority of those bowyers would never have made bows.

They were written a few decades ago now. Concepts, understanding and processes change and develop. But the fundamentals taught in those books are still essential reading in my opinion.
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Re: No Wood!

#19 Post by greybeard » Sat Nov 22, 2014 1:50 pm

Nezwin wrote:.....while heavily criticised in some forums, mentions Juniper as a passable bow wood. I have access to a quantity of this - how does it measure up on by your analysis?......
Here are some numbers for you;

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-ide ... n-juniper/

http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-ide ... r-juniper/

Juniper selfbow; http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/ ... r-Self-Bow

Google Juniper selfbows and you will find a lot of results.

The following photos of a Juniper bow were from a link Longbow Steve posted but I can't find it, may have been Paleoplanet.
en2.jpg
en2.jpg (224.38 KiB) Viewed 7478 times
en3.jpg
en3.jpg (196.59 KiB) Viewed 7478 times
en4.jpg
en4.jpg (129.91 KiB) Viewed 7478 times
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

Sabinus
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Re: No Wood!

#20 Post by Sabinus » Sat Nov 22, 2014 6:40 pm

Wow Daryl, what a 'fortuitous' photo of that exploding bow! Not so lucky for the archer, although he is showing some remarkable poise among the exploding fragments!!!
That is why I feel I'll just keep backing every bow that I make thanks very much!

I couldn't agree more with you regarding TBB series Dave- as a resource that's been born out of the absolute passion on behalf of the authors for wooden bows, these book's value can't be overestimated. All four sit on my shelf at home and I refer to them constantly. I'm not sure who's knocking TBB, but despite the obvious and understandable North American bias regarding the timbers discussed, I'd recommend them to everybody.

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Re: No Wood!

#21 Post by Nezwin » Sat Nov 22, 2014 7:42 pm

greybeard wrote:
en3.jpg
Ouch! Thanks for the information though, Daryl.
Sabinus wrote: I'm not sure who's knocking TBB, but despite the obvious and understandable North American bias regarding the timbers discussed, I'd recommend them to everybody.
I agree, I've found them to be very good. I've a book by Glenn St. Charles too, which has been good for an all-round look at the art. I discovered a book called 'Book of the Bow' by Gordon Grimley published in 1958 which covers the history of archery, making your own gear and some input to correct form, which has some 'different' ideas but not bad at all in many ways. For $2 in the op shop, you can't go wrong. I started my first bow in months today based off of the limb profile used in it, time permitting it'll be finished by end of year.

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Re: No Wood!

#22 Post by yeoman » Sat Nov 22, 2014 8:14 pm

Are the instructions in that book for a selfbow or a laminated bow?

Not bad for the price.
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Re: No Wood!

#23 Post by Nezwin » Sat Nov 22, 2014 9:10 pm

yeoman wrote:Are the instructions in that book for a selfbow or a laminated bow?

Not bad for the price.
Selfbow from a stave - the author suggest Yew but lists Lemonwood or Osage as 'second best'. The 1950's Englishman in him coming out, I assume. In the same book he also consistently refers to non-Europeans as 'savages', so I take much of it with a pinch of salt.

The profile, which I had never seen before, was slightly reminiscent of the Holmegaard (to my mind, at least). He states that, (paraphrased) from the edge of the riser/handle, draw a line from either side to the centrepoint at each tip. Where this pyramid shape has a half inch width across, draw parallel lines to a quarter inch either side of the centrepoint at the tip. A picture speaks a thousand words...
photo 1.JPG
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Sorry for the poor quality, I'll be back in the office on Wednesday with access to a scanner.

It's nothing to revolutionary but different to anything I've tried before.
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photo 2.JPG
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surfarcher
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Re: No Wood!

#24 Post by surfarcher » Thu Nov 27, 2014 12:39 pm

Sabinus wrote:Hey guys, has anyone else here ever had the time and urge to make a bow - and found they have no access to a piece of suitable timber?
Day one of my precious week off, and I was looking forward to putting last week's breakage behind me, and last week's hard-won lessons to good use, by getting out to our only supplier of 'exotic' timber here in Adelaide and picking up their only remaining hickory stave, and getting home and into some 'sawdust production.'

...snip...
Yeah fellow Sozzie here and I feel your pain.

SA is basically a hardwood desert, from a retail perspective. And the few guys you can find who sell "bowwood" here are aimed at laminated fiberglass bowyers. They'll gouge you hard for a stave and, as you found, it's pretty tough to actually make a selfbow from one.

In the hills there are a few properties that grow Ironbark and Spotted Gum, plus some other good candidate aussie bowwoods. But making contact is the hard part. I did manage to contact one such several years ago and spent a Saturday cutting Spotted Gum. But it was 45C and the whole lot checked before I could get it home :-(

If you want to break the law you can poach hardwoods off public land... But I understand the fine is pretty hefty and rangers/police will press charges.

I've gotten a lot of Ash from various locations but... that stuff breaks. A lot. I have spent a lot of time making Ash matchsticks. Maybe our very dry climate simply dries it out too much. I have only made successful bows with it by going very wide and very light.

The few organizations that import hardwood... well most of them won't even talk to you. And the others want you to import 1,000+LM. That's thousands of dollars of hardwood. The big places like Bunnings take a long time to respond and then want you to spend at least several hundred on special orders or simply won't do it at all. That doesn't stop my from retrying from time to time.

So that's all the bad news.

The good news is you can get hold of good aussie bowwoods here. You just have to be tenacious as hell and work your way down the foodchain. And then do it all again a bit later.

Right now I'm trying to work out how to get pick up some hardwood from Australian Timbers during the day - some 86mmx19mm Spotted Gum decking in lengths long enough for bows. I have decent bamboo already so while I am hoping to make decent weight selfbows I won't hesitate to go backed. Naturally I live in the south and catch a train to work, but the place is north-east of the city and only open until 4pm weekdays.

There are other places too. But like I said tenacity is the key.

Surf
Last edited by surfarcher on Fri Nov 28, 2014 7:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

Sabinus
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Re: No Wood!

#25 Post by Sabinus » Thu Nov 27, 2014 7:47 pm

Hey Surfarcher,

Yep, it all sounds familiar....is it just a south Aussie thing with companies that generally sell to the trades, that they refuse to help the smaller scale craftsperson?

You mentioned Australian Timbers - the specifics you mentioned suggest you've been in contact with them?....I totally understand the challenge of getting out to these places during the modest amount of hours they are open. I could have a few days free just before christmas- if these guys are willing to sell just a few boards of spotted gum perhaps I can grab some for us both.

Darren

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Re: No Wood!

#26 Post by surfarcher » Fri Nov 28, 2014 8:48 am

Sabinus wrote:Hey Surfarcher,
Hi Darren!
Sabinus wrote:Yep, it all sounds familiar....is it just a south Aussie thing with companies that generally sell to the trades, that they refuse to help the smaller scale craftsperson?
You have to ask yourself why, get inside their heads. Most of them aren't set up to sell wood retail and don't really even know what they'd charge to supply small amounts of timber for a hobbyist. A lot of them, and I'm talking bigger businesses here, don't even reply to emails I send when I know for a fact they reply to trade emails. One that replied to me recently simply sent something like "Sorry, we can't help you. We tried this a few times and it just didn't work out."

Basically they don't make enough profit to compensate them for their time. And many people expect to talk it through over the phone/email and have the perfect item sitting their waiting for them. But someone has to search for it, right?

These days I never mention bows at initial contact. I keep it short and factual asking only what they might have in stock/excess. I outline types of timber, minimum width/height as well as minimum and preferred length. I let them know I'm a hobbyist and that I am wary of wasting their staff's time. That because my needs are a bit particular I'm happy to go through stacks and leave them neater than I find them. Offer to pay a premium price, buy several times what I need, pay cash. Whatever I can do that will hopefully sweeten things and minimise their own involvement.

Even so the bigger guys mostly aren't interested.

This time I had some luck before even getting to making phone calls. Both Australian Timbers and a startup called Australian Timber Direct were both friendly and helpful. ATD ship hardwood flooring into SA from mills and while they typically need to do 1,000+LM lots they offered to piggyback some ungraded Ironbark feedstock onto a shipment for me if they are able to. The ADT thing is inconclusive and although I've not gotten any bowwood out of it I consider it a successful experience.

So two positive response out of contact with 15-20 businesses. So this time I didn't have to go on to plans C, D, E,...
Sabinus wrote:You mentioned Australian Timbers - the specifics you mentioned suggest you've been in contact with them?....I totally understand the challenge of getting out to these places during the modest amount of hours they are open. I could have a few days free just before christmas- if these guys are willing to sell just a few boards of spotted gum perhaps I can grab some for us both.
Yeah these guys have been great. I'll be heading out there Wednesday to pick out four 86x19x1800+ (3.4"x3/4"x71") lengths and forcing $50 cash into their hands. Hopefully it's not grooved decking, but it doesn't really matter if it is, I can deal with that easily enough.

If you want me to pick some up for you we can arrange something. Otherwise I can talk to the guy there for you if you like.

Edit: When it rains it pours. I've just had another lead come up aces and this one is significantly easier for me to get to. I don't suppose you'd be interested in taking over the Australian Timbers one??
Edit 2: What a day! Events at home and work have completely excluded me from making it to Australian Timbers before the new year. I've let my contact there know someone else may be interested so if you can let me know I'll put the two of you in touch, if you want.

Surf

Sabinus
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Re: No Wood!

#27 Post by Sabinus » Sun Nov 30, 2014 9:49 pm

Hey Surf,

Well it sounds like it's all happening for you mate! Well done on rustling up a contact for your timber in the south- I'm in Aberfoyle Park, so maybe you'd let me know how these new guys are to get on with.

Regarding Australian Timbers, I'd very much appreciate the name of your contact there. Props to you for the amount legwork you've been putting in in the 'quest for wood'- It would be good in future to be able to repay the favour.

Thanks Mate,
Darren

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surfarcher
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Re: No Wood!

#28 Post by surfarcher » Mon Dec 01, 2014 5:18 pm

Sabinus wrote:Hey Surf,

Well it sounds like it's all happening for you mate! Well done on rustling up a contact for your timber in the south- I'm in Aberfoyle Park, so maybe you'd let me know how these new guys are to get on with.
Well three contacts so far, which is good. I went to Bettawoods on South Road on Saturday and pillaged about 100 lengths of 2.4m Spotted Gum. I picked out the best 4 I could find, forced $50 on the owner and headed home. But a mid-week trip during business hours isn't something I can do any time this year.

If you want to try Bettawoods you'll have to hit up the 1.8m, 3.0m or 3.6m piles.
Sabinus wrote:Regarding Australian Timbers, I'd very much appreciate the name of your contact there. Props to you for the amount legwork you've been putting in in the 'quest for wood'- It would be good in future to be able to repay the favour.

Thanks Mate,
Darren
No probs at all. PM me your email address and I'll put you in contact with the guy there.

And remember, no matter where you go - buy more than you need, pay a good price, pay cash and leave the stacks neater than you find them! Basically do everything you can to make it a positive thing for the business.

Oh yeah. I am still chasing Ironbark, lol!

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Re: No Wood!

#29 Post by sylakone » Fri Feb 20, 2015 1:42 pm

I too have hit the walls everyone else has here as well but I have had some luck.
I am still very new at bow making. I am south of Adelaide.

Deyoungs salvage will sell you some re-purposed red oak floorboards I have not had heaps of success here but I was able to get a selfbow to the half brace stage before it chrysalled.
I have made a Fibre backed Merbau Bow and so far that has been really good it currently gets about 34lb at 24" draw so it would be close to 50 - 60lb at full draw. I bought a 140mm x 19mm x 2000mm board it was about $26 I got that from wood and logs which is behind Deyoungs.
I recently purchased a good Spotted gum Board from Southern Timber it s about 2200x800x19mm it only cost $16
I will tell you how I go when I start making a bow with the spotted Gum.
I'm planning on using the Molgabet style for this one.

Cheers

Sy
Cheers

Sy

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surfarcher
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Re: No Wood!

#30 Post by surfarcher » Fri Feb 20, 2015 2:02 pm

Good work Sy!

Looking like we should have an Adelaide Bowyer's meetup soon! I know a few places down south....

FWIW my boo-backed Spotted Gum is almost to the point of gluing up (going Perry Reflex style). Just need to find a few 30 min stretches to get it there :-P

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