Warbow failure...

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hunterguy1991
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Warbow failure...

#1 Post by hunterguy1991 » Fri Oct 24, 2014 3:38 pm

Well I had a second Red ironbark and hickory stave glued up waiting to tiller today and I finally started working on it at about 1 o clock.

Quarter past 3 I had it bending what I thought was pretty well... almost compass, maybe still a fraction stiff in the handle (about 20 mins work to get right) and had it down to 30 inches a few times as that's where I need to get them for weighing. (was at 100lbs @ 30 while I was there tillering it)

Plan was to get a few photos to put up as I was very sceptical about the bow working or not since it had some gnarly knots and branch spots through the belly piece as well as a couple of gum veins ( found all this when I was cutting initial tapers) but figured what the heck, I've already glued it up to a good piece of hickory.

Had my camera lady (mum) ready and waiting for the bow to hit the 30 inch mark and snap a photo (its too heavy to do alone!!) when all of a sudden.... CRACK!!... :shock:

My "tough as nails" hickory backing let go and lifted a big splinter at a ring that was cut.... not a complete catastrophic failure (lucky) but a failure none the less. :x Photos of the splinter later...

Now, is it possible to fix a splinter on the back of a bow?

Colin

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Re: Warbow failure...

#2 Post by greybeard » Sat Oct 25, 2014 4:32 pm

hunterguy1991 wrote:Now, is it possible to fix a splinter on the back of a bow?
Could be a candidate for a pole bamboo back.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: Warbow failure...

#3 Post by hunterguy1991 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:43 pm

Daryl,

I would have to flatten the back again as its crowned before I could glue the bamboo on...

Mick has given me some suggestions which I'm trying and will see how it goes... Plan is to nock 20lbs off the draw weight after the splinter is remedied.

Colin

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Re: Warbow failure...

#4 Post by greybeard » Sun Oct 26, 2014 7:57 pm

hunterguy1991 wrote:My "tough as nails" hickory backing let go and lifted a big splinter at a ring that was cut.... Now, is it possible to fix a splinter on the back of a bow?
greybeard wrote:Could be a candidate for a pole bamboo back.
hunterguy1991 wrote:I would have to flatten the back again as its crowned before I could glue the bamboo on...
Colin, I should have elaborated on my reply. What I should have written was to remove the hickory backing all together and replace it with bamboo.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

hunterguy1991
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Re: Warbow failure...

#5 Post by hunterguy1991 » Sun Oct 26, 2014 9:12 pm

Daryl,

That could be what I end up doing if the remedy doesn't work... need to get my bandsaw fixed first tho as its playing up...

I would also have to get the pole bamboo long enough to fit the bow, its 84 inches total.

I do want to try one with bamboo to see how it goes... I have seen it done before but I would like to try it myself.

Colin

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Re: Warbow failure...

#6 Post by Hamish » Mon Oct 27, 2014 10:36 am

Hi Colin, Have you made many lower weight bows before? I ask because its a big call to try for a 100lber if you don't already have plenty of experience, both skill wise and with the combo of materials you are using. The quality of backing needs to be virtually perfect, straight grain, no pin knots and a little thicker than a target or hunting weight bow. Select belly material with no obvious flaws, gum veins, knots etc. You want to stack the odds in your favour, to get success.
If a bowyer can't make a good bow at 50lbs with a certain combo of timbers, it is very unlikely he will succeed when trying for a 100lber. Start low, find out what works, then increase the poundage by 10 lbs on the next one, to see if the design and materials holds up. If it doesn't then you can modify the design and or materials, and see if you succeed. Repeat as many times as necessary to get your ideal weight warbow.
Hamish

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Re: Warbow failure...

#7 Post by greybeard » Mon Oct 27, 2014 12:39 pm

hunterguy1991 wrote:I would also have to get the pole bamboo long enough to fit the bow, its 84 inches total.
Bamboo Australia at Belli Park have bleached poles up to 5.8 metres in length.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

hunterguy1991
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Re: Warbow failure...

#8 Post by hunterguy1991 » Mon Oct 27, 2014 7:27 pm

Thanks Daryl,

I have looked at their stuff before, its just getting up there is the problem since postage is ridiculous...

Hamish, have a look through a few of my other threads mate... I have done bows from 30lb up to the warbow I currently shoot at 115lb and out of various combinations of timbers...

The Hickory piece I used on this one was no worse than the piece that is on my 115 which is holding up just fine... It was simply a small mistake that cost big due to the stresses involved in these high draw weight bows... I have learned the lesson, am fixing the bow and will do better on the next one...

Colin

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Re: Warbow failure...

#9 Post by Hamish » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:23 am

Hi again Colin, I just checked some of your previous posts, and I admire your enthusiasm and energy. I mainly asked about your experience because the last couple of posts had titles that implied you weren't having as much success as you would have liked.
I think one of the biggest problems with bowmaking in Australia is access to wood that is suitable, both the species and the straightness of grain. I hate seeing blokes waste their time with materials that for various reasons only have a borderline chance of success. Give the same guy good materials and they usually turn out a durable bow.
Some guys occasionally have pure dumb luck and a bow works despite having short grain, knots that aren't compensated for, or are cut through on the back.(I don't seem to be one of those guys)
Any mistake you have made or might in the future has been done by other bowyers. I am certainly guilty of using the wrong species, or the right materials with the wrong grain, and a host of other ones, including impatience. I just wanted to share my very hard won experience, and did not mean to sound like I was criticising you.
Whatever the reason I can sympathize with how frustrating it feels, when you are so close to success, and have a bow not turn exactly how you want it. Nothing builds confidence like success so try and stack the odds in your favour. Good luck for your next one. :razz:
Hamish.

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Re: Warbow failure...

#10 Post by hunterguy1991 » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:36 am

Cheers Hamish.

I take each failure with a grain of salt... Every time something goes wrong or a mistake is made there is a lesson to be learned and I do my best to figure out what the lesson is and do better with the next one.

This bow may have cracked but the crack has been mended (learned something there) and I will eventually continue work on the bow to try to get a shooter... Sure it may not be the draw weight I wanted (theres plenty there to play with!!) but if it shoots well I will be happy with the end result... one can never have too many bows I reckon so it will be another to add to my collection.

Colin

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Re: Warbow failure...

#11 Post by hunterguy1991 » Thu Oct 30, 2014 8:18 pm

I FIXED IT!!!! WOOHOO!!!

After using Mick's remedy for the crack and some careful tillering this arvo this is the end result... 80lbs@ 30 inches ( happy with that!) and a nice bend.
Ironbark warbow-80lb@30 near final tiller (640x480).jpg
Ironbark warbow-80lb@30 near final tiller (640x480).jpg (172.32 KiB) Viewed 4885 times
Left limb looks a little stiff in the photo but was scraped after this shot was taken. Also it is the bottom limb and after looking at some video of it being shot, they even out nicely when the bow is held slightly low of centre (arrow pass is 1-1.25 inches above exact centre).

Very happy that its now a shooter and learned some things along the way.

Cheers

Colin

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Re: Warbow failure...

#12 Post by Sabinus » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:15 pm

That looks great- well done!

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Re: Warbow failure...

#13 Post by Sabinus » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:15 pm

That looks great- well done!

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Re: Warbow failure...

#14 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Fri Oct 31, 2014 6:09 am

Colin,

This one is a bit different to your earlier effort. See pic below. Bit too stiff in the middle, outer limbs whipping OK. But you must have taken the picture somewhat from the right hand side because the RH limb looks to be about 1.25 inches shorter than the left limb. Is it centred on the tiller??? I mean geographically centred and not centred on the arrow pass?

If the pic is taken from the right side slightly, that would account for a slight foreshortening of the RH limb. All chords 1, 2 and 3 are of equal length as usual and your picture has been rotated to square.

What was Mick's fix for the splinter?
file.jpg
file.jpg (189.18 KiB) Viewed 4873 times
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

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Re: Warbow failure...

#15 Post by hunterguy1991 » Fri Oct 31, 2014 1:54 pm

Thanks for your thoughts Dennis. The picture probably is off... Its tricky to hold 80lbs,in one hand and hold a camera steady in the other... Should have employed my photographer but she was busy at the time.

the bow is dead centre on the tiller and the left limb is slightly stiffer than the right but when the bow is held correctly they even out when its drawn and shot. I have been looking at alot of videos on YouTube of war bows and this is the shape most seem to draw out to... Even well know makers like Poletti seem to do them like this.

I wish I could post the video so you can see it on the draw and shot...

I may scrape the handle area a little more yet but I don't think it needs it.

the splinter remedy was techno glue in under the splinter left to cure and then a linen patch over it, which seems to have done the trick.

Colin

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Re: Warbow failure...

#16 Post by Hamish » Fri Oct 31, 2014 3:49 pm

Nice save Colin, looks good.
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Re: Warbow failure...

#17 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Fri Oct 31, 2014 4:54 pm

I was thinking of an industrial super glue, but yours (Mick's) fix is as good as any. The people you mentioned once before about having bows which were a bit stiffish in the middle won't like this one then, especially if they criticised the first bow. As for myself, I reckon it is a fine bow and still bends through the handle and looks nicely rounded if not circular.

I reckon 80lbs will be a pleasant little bow for you to play around with.

Good one, Colin.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Warbow failure...

#18 Post by hunterguy1991 » Sat Nov 01, 2014 9:27 am

Yes Mick's fix worked really well. I think I may put a linen patch on the other limb as well just to make it look symmetrical and a bit more pleasing to the eye.

The other people are yet to make comment on this one... Probably because Steve Stratton has posted his thoughts and commended my work... Haha.

At 80lbs this bow will be and excellent training bow since I feel like I could happily shoot it all day to no I'll effect on the body... I will be testing its cast against the 75lb one I,made for a friend over the next few days...but I think it will out shoot the 75 pretty easily. I'm not sure,if I will be keeping this one tho as some friends are keen to get one for themselves and start shooting them with me. Distance/clout shooting is heaps of fun!!

I am getting a stave of pacific yew shipped over for my next bow for myself and will be aiming for 130-140lbs @30". Which will be something to work up to but potentially get me into AWBS records if I can do a good job in the making. That's one will definitely be posted on here with heaps,of photos!

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Re: Warbow failure...

#19 Post by bigbob » Sat Nov 01, 2014 1:14 pm

Looks like you are going ahead in big steps there Colin.good to see! Be watching your progress with interest!
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Re: Warbow failure...

#20 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:19 pm

Probably because Steve Stratton has posted his thoughts and commended my work... Haha.
Really???!!! Where??

Personally, I really admire people who are doing their best to uphold and promote and preserve the ancient traditions of archery and practice. I really haven't much time for the modern stuff. Well done. You can certainly walk the walk well enough, now you just have to learn to talk the talk, Colin.

Good on you!
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Warbow failure...

#21 Post by hunterguy1991 » Sun Nov 02, 2014 8:01 am

On Facebook Dennis...

Im not a really big fan of social media but it does have some pro's... one being large groups of guys who all enjoy shooting heavy bows and a few that make them as well, myself and Mick included.

Its always interesting to get an opinion from someone that only shoots these bows but has never actually made one. Convincing them about the whip tiller that you have suggested is dam near impossible... all they care about is "compass"...

Colin

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Re: Warbow failure...

#22 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Sun Nov 02, 2014 1:41 pm

Convincing them about the whip tiller that you have suggested is dam near impossible... all they care about is "compass"...
I expect no less though. It has parallels on this site in the ongoing misuse of the description of bows as being reflex-deflex.

There is a fixation on the word which they sourced from Ascham (the word, not the fixation), but clearly did not read much further either, specifically where he describes that they should whip the ends "but with discretion lest him whip in sunder fore he is ware of" which I have referenced earlier.

Neither do they seem to have any grasp of how the term 'compass' was used back then. Throughout his book, particularly Book II on the technical and practical aspects of archery, the word also refers to the shape of the trajectory of the arrows in flight. Clearly, the word is NOT a synonym for circular or a circle. It is much closer to our use of the word' curved'. Back then it had a much less specific meaning to which many modern archers have ascribed a single specific meaning which was never there in the first place.

In just the same way that the contemporary expression of 'keeping a length' means both to shoot the arrow to the same distance as well as to maintain a consistent draw length. In Toxophilus, Ascham used the same two expressions in reference to two clearly different applications. You cannot just copy and paste an expression used around 450 years ago into modern English with a modern connotation. That is what they are doing. We are right - they are wrong.

I am happy to say that I have no interest in becoming a member of Facebook or Twitter. I have often wondered if the inventor of Twitter was having a backhanded go at the intelligence of its intended users or what he thought of them. The droll W.C. Fields of cinematic fame in the 1930s once commented in one of his films to "Never give a sucker an even break." - apposite advice to perceptive entrepreneurs.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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