Basic English longbow for beginners

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hunterguy1991
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Basic English longbow for beginners

#1 Post by hunterguy1991 » Sat Jul 05, 2014 9:13 am

Gday all,

Being an amateur bowyer, but interested in all forms of bows from all different ages and types makes things a little complicated. I find myself wanting to try and make all of these different styles of bows but never knowing exactly where to start.

With that said, I was wanting some information on probably my most sort after creation, the classic English longbow. I was wanting to get some starting points not only for myself, but also other first timers to help them increase their chances of finally making and shooting their very own accurate representation of this medieval weapon.

First timers should note, from what I have read, D section bows can be tricky to get right as it is quite a complex design in terms of mechanical properties and forces involved.

For the purpose of this I'm assuming the bow will be backed with a cheap material ie linen, jute, silk to increase success rate (not authentic I know but helps decrease failure rate I feel) and they bowyer has access to only basic tools like files, rasps, hand saw, chisels etc. NO sophisticated power tools, maybe a jigsaw at most!! I have had success in roughing out basic shapes with minimal tools and find it rewarding when hours of rasping is complete and there is a bow blank sitting in front of you. I also feel working with hand tools gives a greater appreciation of how it was done hundreds of years ago.

Some questions I have come up with while researching and sifting through the posts on ozbow for information are as follows:

First and maybe most importantly, which timbers are most likely to yield successful results? I understand from reading posts that some timbers can withstand the compression better with a D cross-section better than others. Are there any species that should be outright avoided?

Is there a base overall or ntn length vs draw length calculation that can be done for the English longbow? Having a draw of 28 inches myself, how long would I need to go for the best chance of success?.. 76" ntn, 78" ntn?

Having started an experiment using a Spotted gum decking board (20mm thick) with an ntn length of 68" and using the whole available thickness at the handle, I'm feeling that 68 may be a fair bit short, but time will tell.

Next, is there a basic template for the widths along the bow that will yield success? The bow I mentioned above has a 4 inch handle section ( 2inches either side of centre) which is 30mm wide and then a straight taper to the tips which are 16mm wide. Will let you know how it goes...

A template I came across in a post by Len (big shout out and I'm definitely going to try this layout next!!) is as follows:

For a 78" bow make the centre section 19 1/2 " long and 30mm wide for the entire length. Either side of this you will have a section also 19 1/2 " long and this will taper from 30mm down to 22.5 mm. The next section is the tips and these are 9 3/4" long and will taper down to 12mm. For thickness start the bow 25mm thick in the centre and make a straight taper down to 12mm at the tips.

Now I can only assume since it was for an English longbow that it was a D section so it could be as simple as rough out these dimensions with hand tools and then round the belly corners. Fingers crossed.

One thing to note, I am not writing this in an effort to spoon feed first timers... there is some things you do have to learn and will be better for it, however, I want to provide a decent place to start and then experiments can be done at leisure to achieve different draw weights etc. after.

Hope to get some great input from all the experienced guys out there. Your skills never cease to amaze me and I do very much appreciate all the help you offer.

I will undoubtedly come up with more questions as I progress but I think that is a long enough post for now.

Straight shooting as always,

Colin

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#2 Post by cmoore » Sat Jul 05, 2014 10:25 am

Hi Colin,

I'd say to stick with the old red oak boards as from my experience they can take a fair bit of abuse! Plus you made that ace lil bow with the steamed tips so you'd already have a feel for what red oak can take. I made this lil red oak bow for a mate awhile ago I think she was 64" tip to tip with an 8" non working handle and no backing...not sure what it drew at 28" but my friend is clearly pulling it further than 28" and it's still taking this kind of abuse a year later :roll: ...just a testament to the good old red oak
20131104_081550-1-1.jpg
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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#3 Post by hunterguy1991 » Sat Jul 05, 2014 11:11 am

G'day Cmoore,

That's a nice bow mate, like the riser colour combination.

I will be sticking with the Oak for more bent bows (hopefully maple, hickory or bamboo backed for some oomph) but I would like to make the classic traditional D-section English long bow rather than flat bows like the bent ones. Myself and some friends are very into medieval weapons and want to have something like the real deal to "play" around with. Also I feel it would further my skills as a bowyer if I could make them successfully.

In my experience the oak is a bit on the slow side and takes quite a bit of set compared with spotty flat bows I've done at heavier draw weights, something I am putting down to its lower density. Or maybe I'm actually pretty average at making them... lets hope not.

Cheers,

Colin

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#4 Post by greybeard » Sat Jul 05, 2014 2:21 pm

hunterguy1991 wrote:probably my most sort after creation, the classic English longbow.
Colin,

What is a classic English longbow?

Is there a particular period in time, a distinction between the civil and military longbow or some other determining factors that qualify the design as a 'classic' longbow.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#5 Post by hunterguy1991 » Sat Jul 05, 2014 3:47 pm

Daryl,

Had a feeling this might happen, what with all the disputes between what is a longbow, and what isn't,, string touching the tips, recurved tips blah blah etc that occur throughout these posts.

To me, the classic English longbow is a bow with even circular tiller at full draw, has a D-section belly, maybe slightly rounded back and bends through the handle when drawn... Horn nocks optional.

What do you feel is the "classic" or better yet "iconic" English longbow?

Colin.

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#6 Post by mikaluger » Sat Jul 05, 2014 4:47 pm

Have a look here colin, http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=14091
Here is a couple of ELB's I made last year. The full draw pick is a Bow I made of Red Oak backed with hickory.
I know you have difficulty getting Hickory, I can help you with that. I can cut and machine you some strips, or i can send you a piece and you machine it. The problem is length, it is expensive to send it full length. If you are happy the splice it at the handle it will be cheaper. PM me.
Mick.

Malas and American white Ash are timbers you might want to consider, as both make good bows and are readily available. They need to be Backed.

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#7 Post by greybeard » Sat Jul 05, 2014 5:17 pm

hunterguy1991 wrote:To me, the classic English longbow is a bow with even circular tiller at full draw, has a D-section belly, maybe slightly rounded back and bends through the handle when drawn... Horn nocks optional.
Colin,

I agree with your interpretation but would add that such a bow should be crafted from a split billet and not a milled board.

I asked the question because there are virtually no surviving bows prior to the Mary Rose bows of the Tudor period [1845 – 1603] and very little or nothing up to the Victorian era [1837 – 1901].

Although photography was commercially introduced in 1839, a date generally accepted as the birth year of practical photography there are few if any images of bows of the period.

Of surviving examples the Muir [David or Peter] longbow, circa 1850 from Edinburgh typifies my idea of an English longbow.
Muir- Longbow Circa 1850.jpg
Muir- Longbow Circa 1850.jpg (23.87 KiB) Viewed 6637 times
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#8 Post by hunterguy1991 » Sat Jul 05, 2014 6:01 pm

Thanks for that link Mikaluger,
I remember looking at these when you first made them. Love the horn nocks!!
I will definitely take you up on the offer so keep a look out for my PM.
Big cheers!!

Daryl, Im glad we are on the same page, and I 100% agree with you on crafting the bow from a billet rather than a milled board but for amateurs that's pretty daunting. Ive done a few flat bows now with a degree of success but couldn't imagine shaping one from a billet, wouldn't really know where to start.

Its a long term goal of mine though and would love some suggestions for common timbers to look out for to cut and dry.

It may be a case of what I'm wanting to do cant really be done, in which case I will have to increase the sophistication of construction somewhat to achieve success.

Colin

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#9 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:14 pm

hunterguy1991 wrote: a long term goal of mine though and would love some suggestions for common timbers to look out for to cut and dry.
I think there should be plenty of Red Ash growing in your area Colin. It makes a great bow and is suitable for making English Longbows. You can just remove the bark and that is the back of your bow. See this thread where I have mentioned it to you before. http://www.ozbow.net/phpBB3/viewtopic.p ... sh#p131027

Jeff

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#10 Post by hunterguy1991 » Sat Jul 05, 2014 7:42 pm

Gday Jeff,

I remember that conversation, however I'm yet to run across any in my travels... either its not here or I'm not looking hard enough (suspecting the later). Where I am is more gum species (blue, spotted, grey, ghost and scribbly), Ironbark (a few different species but mostly narrow leafed or silver leafed) which does have a beautiful rich dark brown timber under white sapwood and would look fantastic as a bow, but I'm yet to try it, bloodwood, tallowwood, some stringy bark (few and far between) and a few others...

I have my eye on some smaller iron barks on a block but they will take a while to dry properly. I friend of mine has also been trying to get me some chinese elm which I've been told makes nice bows (more likely a flat bow) but will also take time to dry.

Colin

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#11 Post by greybeard » Sun Jul 06, 2014 3:33 pm

hunterguy1991 wrote:First timers should note, from what I have read, D section bows can be tricky to get right as it is quite a complex design in terms of mechanical properties and forces involved.
Not really, the difficulty or otherwise is mainly determined by timber selection, milled boards will prove more difficult than split billets.

The fullness of the 'D' section will vary by timber species.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#12 Post by hunterguy1991 » Sun Jul 06, 2014 4:05 pm

Daryl,

That may be your experience and is very true, but from an engineering stand point comparing a relatively narrow English longbow section to that of a wide flat bow, twist becomes a real Issue in the narrow section since the width of bending is shorter. This means that the narrower limb must be more precise in thickness that that of a wider limb to prevent it.

That is my experience so far with the little experiments I've done at least.

Would a split Ironbark billet be worth trying? I have some smaller trees on a block next door and want to try one if its worth it.

Colin

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#13 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:09 pm

Colin,

Here is my schematic for the layout of a basic ELB pattern bow as requested for the use of others.

The way it is shown in section also indicates how a tri-lam could built. The sidewall section would be the centre lamination using a lightweight shear resistant wood could be employed to keep limb mass down. The back could be made using any of the known tension resistant species and any of the known compression resistant species could be used for the semi-circular shaped belly.
ELB PROFILE copy.jpg
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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#14 Post by GrahameA » Tue Jul 08, 2014 7:46 am

Morning All.

My $0:02 worth.

Consider what you are trying to do.

If you want to make an "Engineered Bow" then manufacture/purchase some engineered material and build it from that. A multi layered timber bow is essentially a glu-lam beam/spring. A bow made from layers of GRP and something else is just a composite beam/spring. Bows can be approached from a beam/ design viewpoint and will work.

If you want to build a bow from a piece of timber it is a very different issue. The material will have properties that will fall within a large range plus the material will not be homogeneous and to treat it it has will probably lead to something that will not have the desired outcome.

If you want to build a bow from a chunk of wood do it like people have done for centuries - cut a bit away and flex until you get the appropriate shape. If you want a bow that you can build from a plan, etc then use a material than has been designed for that purpose from the start.

One item is the product of Technology, Science and Mathematics. The other is the result of some handwork, application of skill and some trial and error.
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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#15 Post by greybeard » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:11 pm

I am not a fan of ironbark when it comes to a deep ‘D’ cross section bow. If you want to try ironbark it may be best to harvest a younger tree that is around seven inches diameter or maybe smaller or one that will yield a suitably crowned back. It will be trial and error.

By personal preference for most bow styles ironbark goes to the bottom of my list closely followed by spotted gum.

Dave Clark aka 'Yeoman' on Ozbow has done a lot of work with ironbark and spotted gum so it may pay to research his posts.

With regards to the n to n length of the bow I believe draw weight should also be taken into account not just draw length. Timber selection will also be an influencing factor.

By all means keep engineering principles in mind but do not be blinkered by them, remember that we are dealing with a natural and at most times an inconsistent material and not one manufactured to exacting specifications.

Alphitonia excelsa (RHAMNACEAE); Soap tree, red ash exhibits similar characteristics to hard rock maple when worked with a spoke shave, scraper or sand paper.
Alphitonia excelsa [Rhamnaceae]Red Ash End Grain.jpg
Alphitonia excelsa [Rhamnaceae]Red Ash End Grain.jpg (99.08 KiB) Viewed 6544 times
If needed, use of these concave scrapers will help produce a symmetrical belly.
Pax Scraper.jpg
Pax Scraper.jpg (55.92 KiB) Viewed 6544 times
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#16 Post by hunterguy1991 » Tue Jul 08, 2014 1:50 pm

Daryl,

Thanks for your input. I will be keeping my eye out for the Red Ash around the place. Hopefully I can come across some. I would even happily purchase some from Ozbow users if they can obtain it easily.

I will also be getting myself some scrapers of various shapes for use in both bow and cabinet making.

Colin

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#17 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:22 pm

Colin,

Both Daryl and Grahame are correct in their approaches. I have made bows using both and I have a preference for the 'mathematical' approach which, so far has yielded surprisingly good results with a minimum of trial and error and with a far greater level of predictability.

Yeoman has an Excel program which can be used for bows of all cross-sections and lengths with high predictability.

I lean towards this method in keeping with the 'traditional' archery work of Hickman, Klopsteg and Nagler throughout the 1930s and 1940s to bring traditional bow designs to a level of performance never seen previously and which work should not be wasted.

However, this thread is meant for beginners and the mathematical approach would be best employed as an advanced method after having learned traditional basics such as Daryl favours.
Dennis La Varénne

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#18 Post by hunterguy1991 » Mon Jul 14, 2014 3:47 pm

Afternoon all,

Well, after a few hours of sawing, rasping, filing and a little scraping I've got an experiment on the go...

Its a spotted gum board which I've shaped according to Dennis's template he posted earlier. It measures 78 inches total and 76 ntn, is 25 mm wide at its widest and 19mm thick at the handle. It has a 3mm crown as in the template and a D-shaped belly. I have glued a linen backing on to hopefully prevent splinters lifting. It will be left glue overnight and half of tomorrow before anything more is done.

Made up a mock long string and gave it a little bend which seemed to be fairly even although the tips don't seem to do much yet. Maybe the first 9 inches in from the tip remains stiff and straight with the little bend I put in it.

Will post some pics tomorrow when I start tillering it for you all to critique.

Colin

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#19 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:03 pm

All the best with it Colin and I look forward to the photos.

Jeff

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#20 Post by hunterguy1991 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:48 am

Well here is the first photo for the day...

Long string on and pulled to 22", 20lbs.

Running a string across the tips in this position give a 6.5 inch brace height.
spotty ELB.jpg
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I have detected a possible hinge location in the left limb about mid way along and the left tip looks to be quite stiff compared to the right.

I will swap camera and try to get larger photos from now on.

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#21 Post by hunterguy1991 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 10:31 am

Photo number 2 for the day...

Here we are at 28 inches with the short string. Right limb bending beautifully, left limb looking a touch sad but alright as far as I'm concerned. the string may not be dead centre which is why its shorter on the right hand side. I should have checked the centre point but was a little excited at the time to see it bending that far.
DSCN0407 (640x480).jpg
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The bow is only pulling 27lbs at 28 inches, however the nocks are cut half inch further out than they will be in final shape (its getting some horn or antler nocks :biggrin: ) so hopefully the weight will go up a little more yet. I may even cut them in an inch from where they are now if the limbs will let me.

Pretty dam happy with this one at the moment I must say!!

Cheers to Dennis for the template, this is the first of many (I hope) done in this shape and style. Looks unreal and feels great in the hand.

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#22 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:46 pm

Congrats on getting the bow to the stage it is. As a rough guide you will probably gain about 10 percent draw weight for each 2 inches (1 inch each end) you bring the nocks in. At 76 inches you should be able to shorten it some without too many problems.

Jeff

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#23 Post by hunterguy1991 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 2:05 pm

Thanks Jeff.

I have put the top antler nock on but it needs to be made smaller lighter. there was a noticeable difference in hand shock after putting it on. I will do the bottom one later today hopefully. I have not shortened it any as yet but it will be easy enough to do should I decide to. simple cut the horn off, re drill the timber out and fit to a new taper that would be filed.

This was a really fun bow to make I must say. Lots of hand tool use and patience. Next to no actual tillering was done to get it to that bend so it must have been pretty even rough filed.

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#24 Post by hunterguy1991 » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:10 pm

full draw photo!!
full draw photo small.jpg
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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#25 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:33 pm

Looks good Colin.

Jeff

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#26 Post by mikaluger » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:29 pm

Very nice Colin, keep up the good work!

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#27 Post by greybeard » Thu Jul 17, 2014 4:57 pm

Colin, congratulations the bow has come up well.
hunterguy1991 wrote:I have put the top antler nock on but it needs to be made smaller lighter. there was a noticeable difference in hand shock after putting it on. I will do the bottom one later today hopefully...
If you want to go with antler tips keep them as light/small as practical and try to have the top and bottom antler tips the same weight to help to keep the limb timing correct.

In this particular application the antler tips are more for aesthetics rather than protecting the integrity of the timber at the string grooves.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]

I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#28 Post by cmoore » Thu Jul 17, 2014 11:50 pm

Excellent looking bow!, looks HUGE compared to my longest bow (53"tip to tip), should post up some more detailed pics of the tips
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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#29 Post by hunterguy1991 » Fri Jul 18, 2014 5:28 pm

Thanks guys, was a fun bow to make and even more fun to shoot (besides the welts on the forearm since I done have an arm guard currently)

Daryl, the nocks on this at the moment are a long way from finished I think. I'm very slowly fine shaping them so they will lose a fair bit of weight and size and I will endeavour to get them close to the same weight but as the bow is going to a friend of mine I will let her final sand and finish everything so she can really make it hers.

Will post more photos of them as they get closed to finished.

Learned a lot through the process which I've already started putting into practice on another one. Should be heavier as I've changed the tip and handle section thickness to gain more weight. More practice will be needed on the horn nocks yet though, matching a taper by hand is tricky!!

More photos of this one and the next one to come over the next few days.

Colin

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#30 Post by hunterguy1991 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 6:23 pm

Well I got the second one all tillered up and shooting well today. Came in 33lbs@28" which is still a bit short of what I want even after shortening it 2 inches to 74" ntn.

So, those dimensions will be kept in a record for that particular draw weight at that length for later use. I will eventually try bamboo backing one and seeing what weight it comes in at then. next up will be testing the heavier version of Dennis's template to see what it comes in at.

I have a question for you all as I was curious. What are a list of timbers that A) will handle a D section belly well and B) a list of timbers that are no good with a D section belly?? Or is it all up to the bowyer and his skills as to whether the bow will work with that cross section or not?

I have had success with backed milled spotted gum boards (surprised myself there) but want some other timbers to try. I think personally it was crowning the back that helped them work as well as they did.

Photos to come,

Colin

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