Basic English longbow for beginners

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hunterguy1991
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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#31 Post by hunterguy1991 » Mon Jul 21, 2014 8:03 pm

Here is number 2 down at 28" on the tiller stick.
ELB2 (640x480).jpg
ELB2 (640x480).jpg (177.51 KiB) Viewed 3745 times
Just have to cut and finish the nocks and give it a coat or 2 or seal. Dad has claimed this one as its a good weight for him to shoot.

Next up, a Mountain Ash, Silver Ash or American White Ash ELB using the bigger template if I can get the timber, if not, I will try spotty at the heavier weight and see what happens. Hoping to get something between 60 and 70lbs to keep for myself.

Hopefully all goes well.

Straight shooting,

Colin

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#32 Post by hunterguy1991 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 10:49 am

Finally scored some Red Ash!!

Managed to get 2 nice lengths, one about 7 inches in dia, the other 4-5 inches dia. (all one tree I think) from a friend who has been gracious enough to look for some for me.

Split them both yesterday arvo and have started working on one of the dodgier pieces ( well I though it was dodgy at first but is looking pretty dam decent now) as an experiment to see what would happen with un seasoned timber. The rest has been stockpiled to season for 6 months or so.

The section I am working was split from the outer side of a curved piece (the thinner one) and has straightened up perfectly due to the internal timber stress. I have marked along the crown line and roughed it out to 30mm width (very rough) and about 1.5 inches thick along the whole stave.

The only issue so far is that the stave has a serious propeller twist... about 50 or 60 degrees from end to end.
Red ash stave (unseasoned).jpg
Red ash stave (unseasoned).jpg (6 KiB) Viewed 3730 times
Looking for some advice from the guys experienced in self bows. Firstly, how should I remove the twist? I can only think of 2 ways, dry heat bend or steam bend..

Second, should I bend it now and then continue shaping or shape a bit more then bend?

Colin

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#33 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:05 am

Firstly your bow above looks pretty good Colin.

With your Red Ash stave I would not try and make a bow from it until it is seasoned. To do so would be a wast of a good stave IMO as the bow would most likely get a lot of set. You could rough shape the bow and then leave it as this will speed up the seasoning process. I would rough shape the bow before attempting to take the twist out of it. Your photo is too small to see much but some propeller twist won't hurt so you don't have to try and get it all out.

Jeff

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#34 Post by hunterguy1991 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 11:18 am

Thanks for the quick reply Jeff!!

When looking at the shadowed end of the stave, closest to the viewer, there is a straight edge running from say 8 O clock to 2 O clock... That edge should be vertical the same as the far end as its the side of the stave... so it has quite a twist.

Steam bend or dry heat bend to remove some of the twist?

I feel steam bending is a bit safer and more reliable but I will need a bigger steam box...

I was feeling like my next step should be to shape the limb thickness taper flat across the belly and then round the belly out as I have done with the other bows in this topic thread as it has produced results and allows to get a decent tiller happening earlier. Do you think this would be a wise choice to progress?

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#35 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:03 pm

hunterguy1991 wrote:Steam bend or dry heat bend to remove some of the twist?
Because the stave is green I would use steam. Others may have another thought on that though. Looking at the photo it sure has a lot of twist and you may not be able to get that out fully.
hunterguy1991 wrote:I was feeling like my next step should be to shape the limb thickness taper flat across the belly and then round the belly out as I have done with the other bows in this topic thread as it has produced results and allows to get a decent tiller happening earlier. Do you think this would be a wise choice to progress?
You could taper it but I would leave it at that until the stave is dry enough to finish.

Jeff

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#36 Post by hunterguy1991 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:23 pm

Thanks Jeff,

I think I will use steam to get as much as I can out, its more the ends that need work, the middle third isn't too bad on inspection. Have to build a full length steam box now! haha :cry:

I have rasped the belly and sides flat to allow for good marking of tapers and whatnot and it will go up in a safe spot to dry for the time being.

Given that the stave is about an inch or so square in section, how long do you think is sufficient drying time? I would hazard a guess at a month or two at least?

Colin

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#37 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Mon Jul 28, 2014 2:39 pm

hunterguy1991 wrote:Given that the stave is about an inch or so square in section, how long do you think is sufficient drying time?
I'm not sure mate. Perhaps weigh it and then check it periodically and when it seems to have stopped loosing weight it should be worth trying.

Jeff

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#38 Post by hunterguy1991 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 3:59 pm

That's a great idea, thanks!!

I have the other side of the same stave to work on in the mean time to get it to the same point and should have some other dry timber to keep me busy.

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#39 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:05 pm

Well at least you've seen Red Ash first hand now. :biggrin:

Jeff

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#40 Post by hunterguy1991 » Mon Jul 28, 2014 4:21 pm

Yep!! loving the stuff so far too.

Will be getting a whole lot more as well so many more ELB's shall be made.

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#41 Post by hunterguy1991 » Tue Aug 05, 2014 2:48 pm

Well, I got my first red ash selfbow shooting today...

English longbow style, D-section, 78" total length and 76" ntn. Pulling 30lbs@28" currently.

It was a bit of a mission to get it to the tillering stick since it was so badly twisted and bent but with a bit of steam and heat I got most of the twist and bend out, rounded the belly and got it to a decent tiller fairly quickly.

The bow did develop some cracks lengthways along the limb during the straightening (probably due to it not being fully dry) so I figured id see just how far I could push it before it failed, expecting it to break pretty quickly...

Didn't break at 30 inches with the long string, figured Id round the belly and get a short string on to push it further... 28" with the short string, still no sign of it breaking.

Tiller is not the greatest, because I did it quickly thinking it was going to fail, but it does the job.

I was very surprised at how light the draw is compared to the thickness of timber in it. Measures 24.8mm thick at the handle for a 4 inch block and straight tapers down to about 16 at the tips. I had first thought this would yield a bow in the 60 to 70 pound range going off templates I've used, so I was a little disappointed with the light draw.

Any suggestions on how to up the weight besides cutting it shorter? My first thought was to increase the length of the block in the handle to maybe 8 or 10 inches to stiffen it up and force the limbs to work more to get the handle bending.

Photos soon,

Colin

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#42 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Tue Aug 05, 2014 4:02 pm

hunterguy1991 wrote:Any suggestions on how to up the weight besides cutting it shorter?
Let the wood dry!

Once dry if you need to increase draw weight shorten the bow to 68, 70 or 72 inches.

Jeff

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#43 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Wed Aug 06, 2014 12:27 am

hunterguy1991,

That is a really decent bit of tillering there. You haven't gone overboard with the bending in the handle bit either. A lot of attempts at the ELB have too much bend through the handle and leave the outer 1/3 of the limbs a bit 'staffish' as Ascham termed it, with very little bend and too much mass which made for excessive and avoidable handshock. Yours are well piked. Try a fastflght string if you don't have one already, and don't believe all the rot about it being too hard on wood bows.

As Jeff and I reiterate perpetually, we have used it on ALL our bows since it was invented, both glass and wood without a single incident of breakage. The improvement is noticeable and the reduction in handshock is very noticeable. It is not meant to compensate for a bow with staffish ends though.

My Red Ash ELBs tended to take about 1.5+" of set in 6 foot bows, but shot very well just the same. 1.5 inches is nothing to worry about.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#44 Post by hunterguy1991 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 8:43 am

Here are the Photos of the red ash ELB, at brace and at 28 inches.
Red Ash @Brace (640x480).jpg
Red Ash @Brace (640x480).jpg (184.98 KiB) Viewed 3696 times
Red Ash ELB @28 (640x480).jpg
Red Ash ELB @28 (640x480).jpg (182.57 KiB) Viewed 3696 times
remember that little tillering was done since I figured the bow was going to break due to some longitudinal cracks in the right limb in the last third before the tip.

Having looked at the picture at 28 inch draw after reading Dennis's comments, I feel it is a little stiff in the outer limbs, something that may not have occurred if the full thickness section in the handle was a little longer. I feel that a 6 inch section of full limb thickness will work well but could even push it to 8 to make the handle bend later in the draw, as Dennis suggested to be once before.

I will be leaving the red ash staves alone to dry for a good while now as I will be picking up some Silver Ash from a timber yard Friday and Mikaluger has been gracious enough to send me some hickory backing strips!! Finally getting my hands on that magic stuff!!! YEW!

Cheers guys,

Colin

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#45 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Wed Aug 06, 2014 10:47 am

Colin,

Actually, you have done much better than you think. Have a look at the chords I have done over your picture below.
file copy.jpg
file copy.jpg (331.6 KiB) Viewed 3695 times
The chords A, B and C are all the same length. Chord C is short of touching the string nock because that limb is longer from the tiller stick than chord A.

The vertical lines marked a, b and c are also the same length. Line c does not touch the belly of the bow because this limb has more bend than the other limb.

The appearance of the bow seems to indicate staffish end limbs, but in fact they are not at all. The whole bow comes very close to being circular in tiller.

However, when you read Ascham, he always refers to bows bending full compass everywhere, but he also uses that term to apply to the parabolic trajectory of arrow flight, so I am inclined NOT to take the term to mean circular necessarily, especially when he advises Philologus that if he buy a bow of good wood to
Take your bow into the field, shoot in him, sink him with dead heavy shafts, look where he cometh most, provide for that place betimes, lest it pinch and so fret: when you have thus shot in him, and perceived good shooting wood in him, you must have him again to a good, cunning and trustworthy workman, which shall cut him shorter, and pike him and dress him fitter, make him come round compass everywhere, and whipping at the ends, but with discretion, lest he whip in sunder, or else fret, sooner than he is ware of:
My understanding of that passage is that you cannot have a bow which has whip-ended outer limbs taken to such a degree that it is just short of breaking and still have a circular tiller. It just won't work. Remember that this man was writing at the time of the Mary Rose bows in 1545 and was archery tutor to both Henry VIII and his daughter Elizabeth.

I would treat the term 'compass' as used by Ascham rather more loosely than describing an exactly circular tillered bow. 'Well-rounded' would possibly be a better understanding of his use of the term. I woud expect a whip-ended bow to have more of a shallow D-shape than circular when braced - being flatter in the middle third of the bow than at the outer limb.

This can be achieved by a bit more thickening in the middle section around the handle area so it bends last as Colin suggests and changing to a steeper thickness taper in the outer 1/3 of the limbs. This would also limit outer limb mass as well.

Most of these bows I have seen still have D-sections right out to the horns, but in fact, the limb cross-section should be tapering to circular in section, the better to blend into the horns.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#46 Post by hunterguy1991 » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:24 pm

Thanks for doing the diagram Dennis. They really do help to visualise the bends and evenness of the limbs.

You mentioned that you have made red ash ELB's around 6 foot long. Out of curiosity, what are the dimensions of the bows, ie. handle thickness and width, the length of the full thickness section at the handle and the tip widths? And what draw weights are they at 28 inches?

My bow seems to be very light in draw weight compared to the thickness and width of the limbs being that the rough template should have made at least a 70+ pound bow... 76" ntn, 25mm thick at the handle, 30mm wide and the handle, 4 inch full thickness handle section, and taper to about 12mm thick at the tips.

Cheers,

Colin

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#47 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Thu Aug 07, 2014 6:44 am

Colin,

All my Red Ash ELBs have long gone now. I tend to give them away after I have had a play around with a new wood. Jeff still has a small one I made for his son, but I cannot remember where the others went.

Normally, I made them between 1 1/8" wide which is about 28mm wide and width tapered to 12mm wide at the horns. The handle thickness at this width was 25mm. That would give me a bow of 72" n-n in the 60lb range. Density of the particular bit of wood is everything. I also had some Red Ash from out towards Kingaroy at one stage, but that was much less dense than the riparian stuff we got from closer to the coast.

Perhaps yours still needs some drying. When I made the shorter bow for Jeff's son years ago, it took a pretty big set of over 2" as I recall and drew 45lbs at 28". It had pretty good speed as I recall and it pelted Jeff's heavy hunting arrows surprisingly well on a hunt we went on together. A few years later, we braced it up again and I think it went up to well over 50lbs. I think I made it about 66" long, but I am hazy about that because I have not seen it for a lot of years now.

Could I suggest that you hold it back-down in a slightly reflexed position of about 1 - 2 inches with a padded block under the exact middle and tied down at the tips. Apply some heat from a heat gun set on low from end to end until it is 'touch' hot. Leave it in that position and repeat the treatment daily for about a week or so to further dry it out and see then how much it gains.

This is a variation of my heat bending process I use to remove string follow and/or induce reflex in my old bows. It works well.

If you want to stiffen up the handle section only, place a padded block of no more than 1/2" under the exact middle of the bow and tie the limbs down a bit outboard of mid-limb, and using your heat gun, put a very slight reflex into the middle of the handle area. It will still flex, but not until very late in the draw.

You can heat the middle third of the limb first then strap it down if you prefer. Both methods work.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#48 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:55 am

I forgot to add that if you decide to try reflexing the middle third of the limb, it only needs to be just 2 or 3mm of reflex, not the full 1/2". That would be far too much. It only needs to be enough to resist bending until the last part of the draw.

The drying procedure above where the whole bow is held in a reflexed position will also bump the draw weight up a good bit.

Both these techniques I have devised myself and work OK. I have 3 little ELBs from Rudderbows which bend far too much in the hand with too litle in the outer third of the limbs. Reflexing the middle 1/3 of the limb centred on the handle has forced the outer limbs to work more without removing wood.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#49 Post by hunterguy1991 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:07 pm

Thanks for the words of advice Dennis, much appreciated.

I will definitely have a play around with the heat reflexing you talked about at some stage.

For now I will leave the staves dry and see what happens once they are. I suspect, as Jeff suggested, they need to be properly dry to maintain good compressive strength in the belly, which will add power and reduce set.

Colin

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#50 Post by rodlonq » Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:43 pm

You seem to have done very well on the tiller there Colin. It will be interesting to see if you can get the weight up as much as you desire. If you don't get enough maybe a sinew backing would give you the rest?

Cheers... Rod

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#51 Post by hunterguy1991 » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:14 pm

Thanks Rod, slowly getting better at it. Learning which areas to work to get the bend right and where to watch for hinges more now... bit different with the knots in the self bow but i'll get there.

Sinew may definitely be the go if I cant get the weight I want with dry timber. Never used sinew before so I'll hit you up for some advice on using it. Will have to wait and see what happens when the Ash is good and dry. Fingers crossed it will gain some strength once dry.

Hickory backed Silver Ash bows are the new project while the Red Ash dries... they should work well and look unreal but we'll see. Horn nocks, leather grips, the whole kit will go into these ones. Hopefully they hit the weights I want (some at or over 90lbs but more the 40-70lb range)

Colin

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#52 Post by Dennis La Varenne » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:44 am

A word about sinew - a heavy enough sinew backing to add significant draw weight weighs more than the wood itself. I have two sinew backed Osage bows here were made in the 1930s or a bit later. One has a thin veneer - barely a single layer thick and doesn't seem to have done anything to pull the bow straighter unless it was used to prevent splinters raising. The second bow - a hinged takedown - has a much heavier layer but still has a good bit of string follow. Both bows are quite heavy in the hand.

Old writings about sinew backing pretty much all concur that sinew backing is only of benefit in very short bows, so long as the belly can withstand the huge compression resulting from the tensile strength of sinew. The American Indian bows which used sinew were all short bows, but they had matched the thickness of the sinew to the belly wood used so a good balance was achieved.

The problem with long bows using sinew seems to be that the outer limb mass increases out of proportion to the amount of draw weight it produces if any at all, whereas sinew is brilliant on short bows which can withstand the high resultant compression on their bellies.

These two old bows of mine don't shoot any better for their sinewing than any Osage long bow I have made and certainly no better than any self long bow I have presently of equivalent draw weight. But both of the are definitely much heavier in the hand.

If you can get some Hickory or similarly high tensile wood for laminating, I would back your bow with that if you can grind it flat on the back enough for a gluing surface. It doesn't need to be full width either. You can also glue it up whilst the whole is held in a modest degree of reflex and get a significant benefit with very moderate increase in limb mass.
Dennis La Varénne

Have the courage to argue your beliefs with conviction, but the humility to accept that you may be wrong.

QVIS CVSTODIET IPSOS CVSTODES (Who polices the police?) - DECIMVS IVNIVS IVVENALIS (Juvenal) - Satire VI, lines 347–8

What is the difference between free enterprise capitalism and organised crime?

HOMO LVPVS HOMINIS - Man is his own predator.

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Re: Basic English longbow for beginners

#53 Post by rodlonq » Fri Aug 08, 2014 8:47 am

hunterguy1991 wrote:
Sinew may definitely be the go if I cant get the weight I want with dry timber. Never used sinew before so I'll hit you up for some advice on using it.

Colin
I can't tell you much Colin, my knowledge is 100% theoretical (lots of reading) and 0% practical. Just "shooting the breeze" really :lol:

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