Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

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Stickbow Hunter
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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#31 Post by Stickbow Hunter » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:12 pm

All looks good so far Darren. :biggrin:

¼" is very narrow. Is that a typo as your marking out lines look wider apart than that at the nocks?

Jeff

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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#32 Post by Sabinus » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:40 am

Right you are Jeff- I actually marked 1/4" on each side of the centre line…….that would make the nocks 1/2".

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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#33 Post by bigbob » Wed Jan 22, 2014 2:57 pm

Good to see your progress. Hasten slowly!
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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#34 Post by Sabinus » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:46 pm

Good call Bob, thanks mate

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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#35 Post by greybeard » Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:07 am

Darren,

You've done an excellent job on the sleeve system.

With snug fitting sleeves temperature changes can make them bind together in the short term but they do come apart.

Daryl.
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For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#36 Post by sevenmil » Thu Feb 06, 2014 4:26 pm

Nice build along - any new pictures...?

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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#37 Post by Sabinus » Wed Mar 05, 2014 11:24 pm

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Hi All,
Many apologies for the lengthy absence. A family pet took exception to the 'relationship' I enjoy with my Mac, decreed it a rival, and neutralized it with urine. Very effective too - still haven't plucked up the courage to find out the repair cost!

The other reason is the arrival of our daughter, Ivy, born 21/2. On the upside, before having a child I never would have deemed 2.46 am an appropriate time to be up and on the computer!!
The good news for this thread is that The pickhandle takedown is still very much on the go, and I've made a little bit of progress.

As the photos show, I've glued the rawhide backing down, and sanded it to a thin, smooth surface on the back of the bow. I opted for economy and convenience with the backing, in line with the basic philosophy of this buildalong. The rawhide is from a dog chew toy that I soaked in water to soften, and then unrolled into a single sheet. I pressed this under books and weights to allow it to dry fairly flat. When dry, I cut two strips of hide, one for each separate limb. Then I re-soaked the rawhide to soften it, and glued up using titebond111. I used the elastic bandage method of binding the rawhide down, and this time added a little trick which made things far easier. Before beginning to wrap the hickory/titebond/rawhide sandwich with the elastic bandage, I used about 5 small zip ties to hold the wet rawhide in position along the limb. Just before I wrapped the bandage over each ziptie, i snipped it off and kept wrapping. This was like having an extra pair of hands and made the process far quicker and easier.

After the glue and rawhide dried, i used the surform rasp to remove the excess rawhide that had wrapped around onto the sides and belly of each limb, and sanded the rawhide down to a 120grit finish, just enough to thin it out and create a satiny smooth surface.

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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#38 Post by Sabinus » Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:27 am

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Hi guys,
this is the second of two posts I've added to this thread tonight, so go back and read the first if you have not already. (please!)
I realised I've recently shot a bow even less often than I've been making one, so today dragged out the 'joebow' and to my pleasant surprise, showed old mr iced coffee just who was the boss!( For that little brag I'll probably spray them all over the place next time!!)
Aaaanyway, prior to beginning to tiller i filed in my nocks, just deep enough to do the job for now. There could be a little adjustment to be done here after I brace the bow and see where the string tracks in relation to the centerline of the handle.
One small point that I probably don't have to make to anyone out there, but which I could of benefitted from when I made my first bow - Take the time to accurately mark out the nocks, and establish the grooves with a 'three square' file before moving on to the chainsaw file. A small point perhaps, but we're approaching the real 'business end' of this build, and it's a terrible time to try rushing or taking a shortcut.
The tillering photo attached here was taken a fair way into the process - in bringing this thread up to date I've included just the most recent photo. Overall I think it looks good- I'm aiming for a fin ished weight of around 45-47lbs@28". The right limb is a little stiffer, but there's a little flat section I'm going to scrape on a bit tomorrow to even things up. After that, my feeling is that the outer 1/2-1/3 of each limb has to bend a bit more, whilst retaining stiffness in the last 6" or so of each limb. I'd welcome input on this!
I've just come across an interesting challenge in tillering, in that there is a bit of propeller twist, but only in one limb. Given that each limb has come from a separate tree, there is no opposing twist in the opposing limb to even things out - it's grain seems a bit straighter. Based on past advise from the forum, All I can do is progress and keep an eye on how things develop.
Question - Would it be time to brace the bow with it's short string?
Question2 - I've not yet cut in my arrow shelf - when would you guys normally do this? I'm thinking of cutting to within about 1/8" of centre. Does this sound about right?
It's great to be back on the forum everybody, thanks in advance for the feedback.
Darren

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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#39 Post by Tom Alker » Thu Mar 06, 2014 5:10 am

Looking good man! It's cool to see someone using the chew toy raw-hide idea, Where did you get it from? I'd really like to try the same idea on my next bow.

Congratulations on the bub too.

Tom.
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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#40 Post by longbow steve » Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:12 am

Hi Sabinus, looking good. Congratulations on the new comer to the family. Yeah it looks like you are at the stage of fitting a short string.
I like to keep the ends of the limb on the stiff side and work on them at the end to minimise weight, generally getting them as narrow as I can.
I am not a fan of shelves on a selfbow both for the look and strength considerations. Glueing a wedge of timber onto the sleeve to act as a shelf is what most do then cover it with a stylish wrap. Keep up the good work. Cheers Steve

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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#41 Post by Sabinus » Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:58 pm

Hey Tom, the dog chew toys are available at pet supply stores, or on ebay if you are willing to trade immediacy for a better price. The biggest I could find was $10 and was enough for one full length bow. There's a bloke on youtube called 'boarrier bows' that has made a decent video of the glueing up process.
Steve, thanks for the tillering feedback. am about to go and put some time in on this shortly, so will have new images soon. I take your point about self bows and arrow shelves and largely agree. This does seem like a bit of a wide handle to bend an arrow around however. I'm giving this bow to a friend as his first bow, and i want it to be pretty user friendly for him in terms of matching some arrows to it and getting them flying sort of where they're being aimed. Your advice makes me feel like a compromise may be the smart option, perhaps a shelf cut in a bare 1/4" or so - room enough to rest the arrow and bring it a bit closer to center, without unduly undermining the strength or aesthetics of the bow.
Thanks guys, more soon.
Darren

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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#42 Post by Gringa Bows » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:12 pm

Congrats on the Bub,the bow looks good :biggrin:

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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#43 Post by bigbob » Thu Mar 06, 2014 3:34 pm

to my ailing eyes and the relative smallness of the photo, I can't really see a flat spot on the right limb unless its in the last 1/3 of limb but it is minor in any case. Well done and looking forward to some completed shots of the bow, backing, and loaded shot etc.Great work all round.
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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#44 Post by greybeard » Thu Mar 06, 2014 4:48 pm

Sabinus wrote:Question - Would it be time to brace the bow with it's short string?
I like to go to the short string as soon as I can get the tips back past brace height.

Usually you will pick up some areas that need tillering because they are not always apparent with the long string.

Congratulations on the new arrival.

Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken.
[Ascham]

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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#45 Post by rodlonq » Thu Mar 06, 2014 7:55 pm

The bo looks really good, looking forward to a pic with the short string on it.

Congratulations on your new addition to the family as well mate.

Cheers...... Rod.

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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#46 Post by Sabinus » Fri Mar 07, 2014 1:47 am

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Hi Guys,
Thanks for all of the encouragement and comments, and thanks for getting back on board after I left you all hanging there for so long!
Well, I'm progressing carefully now the closer to finished i get. It's hard because feelings of anticipation are starting to creep in, but I don't want to get too emotionally invested in this project until I've put at least 100 arrows through this bow. Oh bugger it, who am i fooling.......I really hope it turns out!
I had to spend a bit of time reducing and shaping the limb tips today, so they would fit in the pockets of my bow stringer. With the 68" string fully untwisted, initial brace height is around 4". As I progress through the final tillering stages I'll gradually add twists to the string till brace height is a tick over 6". One thing I was really pleasantly surprised at, with the less-than-perfectly-straight limbs and one-sided propeller twist, is how the string tracks perfectly through the center of the handle - I was not expecting that!! The latest tillering pic does indeed show a much stiffer left (bottom) limb -i had to abandon work for the day to change a nappy and had to leave it uneven. Rest assured that's the first thing I'll address tomorrow! Judging each limb on it's stage of tiller I'd say they look pretty fair - I'm very open to input here however. There is about 1" of set in each limb right after unstringing - does this seem about right at this stage of tillering? I'm only too happy to have a little bit of string follow, but figure anything above 2" would be getting a bit much......
A couple of posts back, Steve questioned the cutting in of an arrow shelf in this design. I took this advice (partly) on and resolved to incorporate quite a narrow shelf instead of the deeper one I'd initially planned - I've measured the width of the base of the top limb (<1 1/8") since then, and wonder if I do need any sort of cut in shelf. My only concern was keeping the bow kind of user friendly and immediately enjoyable for it's recipient, who is new to traditional archery. What do you gentlemen think? I'd really value your advice.
Thanks again,
Darren

P.S. A while back, Yeoman left me in no doubt as to his ideas of the pecking order of wood rasps for bowyering. I listened, and the other day went and bought the shinto japanese rasp. Ummm, yep. this is the one. A bit too late to use on this build, but jeez I'm looking forward to using it on the next one.....tears through wood like a shoal of disciplined but very angry pirhanas - big pirhanas on one side, little pirhanas on the other side. If you have $39 I'd recommend it!
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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#47 Post by yeoman » Fri Mar 07, 2014 5:57 am

Top work. You're progressing quite well.

I'd avoid pulling the bow back quite that far until both limbs are bending evenly. Give it about 4" less bend, perhaps even a greater margin. As it is the right limb is subject to higher stress than the left. This can cause additional set in that limb. Given the rawhide backing, this would make it very difficult to heat treat the set out.

If the base of the limb is less than 1 1/8" wide, there is absolutely no need to cut a shelf. What you might do, in the interests of 'user friendliness' is glue a couple of layers of thick leather onto the side of the handle then file them down into a smooth transition into the cross section of the handle. Then over the top of this you put your cord or leather wrap for the handle. Voila! A small shelf without cutting into the side of the bow.

As for the set...I have a Red Oak bow that pulls 37# @ 26" and shoots 11GPP at 143 fps. It has just a hair over 2" set. Don't lose sleep over 2" of set, especially in your first few bows.

What draw weight are you shooting for?

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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#48 Post by Tom Alker » Fri Mar 07, 2014 7:23 am

Looking good man, Those string grooves look nice!
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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#49 Post by Sabinus » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:28 am

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Hi guys,
Well i think I've almost got it. As the final tiller photo indicates, i couldn't bring myself to down tools at the normal time - a more patient person would have put the bow aside till tomorrow. But what can i say - life is short !

For the last hour or so of fiddling with the tiller I left the bow braced, although I partially drew the bow about 30 times after each set of scrapes before I assessed the results. Does anyone else do any tillering with the bow at brace? I saw the boss of Rudderbows do all of his tillering this way in a video once, but I would be too paranoid about excessive set to try that...
for the same reason I'm going to try the bow at a fairly low brace height of 6" - that and my joebow has the same brace height and I like the idea of the longer power stroke.

Just before downing tools tonight I got the tiller to where i was fairly pleased - it comes in currently at 44lb@28", so I guess that may end up around 40lb after shooting in. A little lighter than I was aiming for, but if it shoots well and lasts long enough for me to shoot it in and gift it I'll be pleased. I've designated 'bottom limb status' to the limb on the left of the tiller picture, as it is marginally stiffer. Looking at the tiller photo now i can see the bow isn't quite sitting level on the tree, so you'll have to take my word for it! String follow measured a tick under 2" immediately after unstringing - again, hopefully that's a pass mark, with room to improve next time.

Steve, I'm happy to report that your wisdom ended up sinking in fully - I'm going to add a little shelf to the side of the grip and leave the riser whole. Much nicer way to do things in the final washup.......designating the top and bottom limbs has been fortuitous in this respect, as the top limb just happens to be mounted into the brass 'inner' sleeve of the takedown assembly, and so is a little narrower at it's base than the bottom limb.

Hopefully tomorrow I'll get to put a bunch of arrows through the pickhandle takedown, and report on the results.
Thanks for reading guys,
Darren

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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#50 Post by Sabinus » Sat Mar 08, 2014 12:49 am

Yeoman, i just read back through your last post on this thread - I also have your advise to thank for helping steer me away from taking a saw to my riser this afternoon - thanks. Thanks also for your information re. stringfollow. The speed of your stringfollow-short draw-low poundage red oak bow seems fantastic. Nice one!

I've heard that you commonly tiller then glue up bamboo backed staves to induce a 'Perry Reflex' - does this mean that to have made a bow with deflexed (set) limbs, you deliberately facilitated the string follow?

Darren

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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#51 Post by yeoman » Sat Mar 08, 2014 5:47 am

Congratulations on gettign the bow to full draw length.

If I might be so bold as to offer a critique....

.....The midlimb on both sides is bending a bit too much, especially on the right. Here I have circled in red where I think there is too much bend. You'll see on the right I've done concentric wobbly shapes to show that there is an area that might be a distant cousin of a hinge.

The way to remedy this would be to tiller a little more in the blue areas to get more bend happening a little closer to the handle. More bend here will allow the stress throughout the limb to redistribute, and as such the areas with too much bend will bend a little less.
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Of course this will result in a loss of draw weight. You can overcome this by cutting an inch off each end. I think this bow can accommodate that without too much trouble.

You can of course leave it as is. But I think a little more adjustment will reduce stack and make for a sweeter shooting bow.

With regards to your question: I don't tiller a stave that will be Perry reflexed with the express purpose of inducing set that can be reversed in the glue-up process. Rather, I tiller to some length of draw (the amount is based on a complex formula involving the day of the week, phase of the moon and how many eggs the chickens have layed) so as to reduce the thickness to something reasonable when the bamboo goes on.

A Perry reflexed stave is a notoriously obstinate beast to begin with. There are untamable broncos that look like placid backyard ponies compared with the difficulty in bracing a Perry reflexed stave in the early stages. One of the remedies for this is to tiller the stave first, so that when the bamboo goes on and the thickness increases (and the initial high instability of the Perry reflex process), the new stave is something close to mortal.
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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#52 Post by Sabinus » Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:24 pm

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Hi guys,
Well, here it is. Shootable, if not fully completed. Yeoman, your suggestions this morning regarding tiller echoed what i was already privately thinking. I had already snuck into the backyard around 3am this morning (typical toxophile behaviour - I hope!) to test shoot the bow for the first time, and was actually really pleased with how it felt, sounded, and shot my 500 grain carbons.

Having my suspicions confirmed from a more experienced viewpoint today though, I decided it was worth trying for a slightly improved result. I scraped a bit of wood away from the inner 1/2 of each limb, and tickled around the edges of those 'hinge-ish' areas to try and relieve them a little too. I observed a better distribution of the bend in each limb, but by now the bow had all the poundage of a piece of cooked spaghetti. I docked the ends of each limb by an inch, carved new string grooves, and put some more twists in the bow string.

I will say, the bow is now almost completely silent - pretty cool. My suspicions (yes, I've been having quite a lot lately!) were confirmed however, when I put the bow on the scale and it came out at 39lb@28" - a loss of 5lb. The real shock though, came when I unstrung the bow, and noted that string follow had blown out from <2", to 3.5". My feelings are mixed.

The bow still shoots well (although with lighter carbons than initially), and the tiller looks a little more correct in the photo now, AND I've demonstrated that a nice bow can be made from a set of pickhandles, which was the original aim of the project. BUT... I'd go back to how the bow was about 3am this morning if i had the choice - it may not have looked quite as legit, but I truly was surprised at how well it was shooting at that stage. That and it was probably a better match for it's recipient at that point.

Aaahhh well, many lessons have been learned during this build, both from the successes and the relative failures. Now i can enjoy the finishing and shooting in of this bow before i move on to bow number 3. Thanks heaps for everyone's help - I'm pretty sure this is now the one and only documented build of a completed, shootable pickhandle takedown longbow on the internet. I hope for some one with limited timber options, this can be a decent resource to show that where there are large tool handles, there can be bows!!!

Darren
P.S. I just saw the hinge halfway along the top limb - bugger!!! :roll:
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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#53 Post by yeoman » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:34 am

It's looking much better than before, and the next will be better still.

If there's an area with a hinge, best practice is to not touch it in any way that removes wood. Any wood removal from a hinged area will make the hinge worse.

Don't feel bad about the set. The fact is you have a shooting bow that is, as you say, a first for the internet.

The tips are still quite stiff. You can increase the speed without changing the tiller or draw weight much by narrowing the outer 8" of each limb by 1/8" or perhaps a smidge more.

You could try clamping the bow straight and leaving it somewhere very, very dry, then seal it against the elements. Hickory loves a low moisture content.

What have you got planned for the next one? Hop to it!
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Re: Buildalong#2- Hickory pickhandle longbow

#54 Post by longbow steve » Sun Mar 09, 2014 5:50 am

Yeah, it looks great Sabinus. Daves advice regarding leaving it in a dry place is good. An air conditioned room/by a fire to drive out moisture before sealing may pick up a few pounds of weight if you clamp it straight. If it was not backed I would suggest heating it with a heat gun into reflex to drive the moisture out. Well done regardless. Cheers Steve

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