Ideal properties for bows & Australian woods

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Rook
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Ideal properties for bows & Australian woods

#1 Post by Rook » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:16 pm

Hi all,

I’ve been lurking here for a couple weeks now (well, on and off for years to be honest), read your posts, looked at your awesome bows and useful advice with much enjoyment. I started making bows a couple of years ago, but gave it up when I had success and winter came; just lost the drive. I’m now very keen and getting back into making them. I’ve made my bows from Australian timber only, Silver Ash actually, and I think what really inspires me about bow-making is this feeling that goes back to the days of gentlemen scientists, discovering stuff in their labs as a pastime. Australian woods are so many, so amazing in their strengths, and so unexplored: it’s a great world of mystery to be explored and understood.

Now this is probably going to be an unusual first post, but I’d like to put in my 2c about bow wood properties. I've read much of the great work that has already been done here (building bows with maths, Dennis's wood tables etc) and I'm hoping to contribute without repeating what has already been said. I don’t have the practical experience many of you will have, having made few bows, but I have a keen desire to learn and explore. Don’t take this as the new guy charging in to tell you he’s right, just my way of pitching in to try to make sense of it all. Discuss, dispute, disagree, it’s all to the benefit of the craft.

On with my thoughts…

A bow is a spring, designed to store energy by deforming elastically, without deforming plastically or breaking. Elastic deformation is a change in shape due to a force which does is not permanent (i.e.: it disappears when the force is removed). Plastic deformation is a permanent change in the material that remains after the force is removed (e.g.: set). A bow needs to deform elastically, resisting a force to store energy, while avoiding plastic deformation.
Given that bows need to do so many different tasks at once, it’s unsurprising that many measures and ideal properties have been proposed. As has already been speculated to some depth here (in Dennis’s wood tables most of all) it is most likely that a combination of properties is desirable.

Actually identifying the combination of properties most desired is a difficult task. Many measures of strength overlap, for example modulus of rupture measures of the force required to impart plastic deformation, as does the concept of elastic limit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elastic_limit). Different units of measurement (Americans using PSI and lbs doesn’t help) have also made the maths one step harder. Really we’re talking about ratios of ratios to ratios here (e.g.: density to MOE to MOR) and the extra conversions make life “fun.”

Looking at the excellent work and speculation that has already been done here I was inspired to have my own go at cracking the problem. The problem, as I see it, is this: in the US and Europe there are a long line of bowyers who have laid the grounds for modern bowyers to select woods and know their properties, which are the best etc, etc. In Australia we have little to no history of bows (I read somewhere that there were a very few in Cape York from PNG), yet we have a plethora of amazing and varied woods, with some of the toughest timbers in the world and only anecdotal evidence as to their usefulness for making bows. I have seen it argued that the lack of any bow-making tradition in Australia is evidence of the fact Aussie timbers are just no good for bows. I think we can safely invite any such person to look at the variety in Dennis’s short list of Aussie woods or perhaps to contemplate the sheer size of geography and variety of flora in Australia and they’ll rescind their argument.

So what’s my take on this… I’d like you to follow my thought path if you have the time, because I think it is important to understanding the end result.

I started from looking at Dennis’s list of timbers (to reiterate, that was some great work!). It just bugged me though, that the traditional king-pins of Osage, Hickory and Yew were rated so poorly! And why were they so low in bending strength (and to a lesser extent, rupture)? I wrote out the generally accepted (or why I considered generally accepted) hypotheses regarding bow wood qualities. In brief I reasoned that high MOR, MOE and low mass were desirable. I also considered that greater limb thickness (back to belly) was a secondary desire, when combined with mass and necessary width to make weight (bow weight, not draw weight).

I also wrote out an alternative hypothesis: lower MOE is better, OR ratio of MOE to MOR is better. I reasoned that a bow is a spring and so it must have some ability to bend without breaking: I was thinking of the design of buildings in earthquake zones: they bend with the quake, to avoid snapping. I was also inspired by the comparison of Iron and Steel: Steel is harder as more carbon is added, but it also becomes more brittle. The MOE of wood is far, far larger than its MOR: it breaks more readily than it bends! Therefore I arrived at my first theory, which was that the ratio of MOR and MOE was important. I also took a bit of a look at some of the desirable properties of springs using reputable sources (read :Wikipedia :P ), which seemed to back this up.

Sorting Dennis’s data by MOR/MOE looked like a good step, top 3: Osage, Hickory, Yew. I considered the idea of mass being important also though, so I revised my thinking and divided mass by MOR/MOE. Top three were now Yew, Hickory Osage… even better, the classic bow wood was on top. The Euro/US timbers Dennis included in his data were near to the top of the list, and a few Australian candidates were there, yet I felt that something was missing. I toyed with the maths on and off for a couple of days, trying to figure out how to incorporate maximum limb thickness into this theory. A limb twice as thick, as is often stated, has eight times the draw weight. A limb twice as wide has… what is it, four? Two times?

I couldn’t crack it, sad to say. Fortunately, I had a look around and found someone else already had (using US timbers)! All I needed to do was to repeat the calculations for Dennis’s list and I could estimate maximum limb thicknesses for Australian timbers.

Here’s the link to the original thread: http://paleoplanet69529.yuku.com/topic/ ... -for-a-bow
So, I’ve done some calculations for Dennis’s list of Australian timber properties, and the top three are Osage Orange, Hickory and…. Saffronheart? Yew drops to number 9 (I’m fine with that, since the whole sapwood/heartwood thing is really unique, probably means it needs more maths), and we’ve got a nice mix if the Australian and EU/US timbers at the top.

I calculated these figures for a 140cm long flatbow, 18kg draw (approx 40lbs) with a bending radius of 55cm. The final figure is the weight in grams of a 10cm long section of fade-width/thickness wood. I don’t know about you, but I want to get some saffronheart and give it a go!

Note: this assumes the same thickness and a straight bend I think, so no actual tiller. This isn’t a guide to actual thickness, it’s a comparison of properties with all factors held constant.

Having trouble attaching... here's a link to the spreadsheet:

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/77412936/BowWoo ... 10.12.xlsx

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bigbob
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Re: Ideal properties for bows & Australian woods

#2 Post by bigbob » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:00 pm

Firstly welcome Rook, hope you become a regular as you undoubtedly will add a lot to general discussion re self bows and suitable woods. I presume given your academic hypotheses you may have an engineering or academic background. What ever, your contributions will be invaluable. I did have a go at opening that link but will have to download a later version of excell for me to view it.
nil illigitimo in desperandum carborundum
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Rook
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Re: Ideal properties for bows & Australian woods

#3 Post by Rook » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:19 pm

Hey Bob, thanks for the welcome and comments! I am of an academic background, but not engineering. I'm a psychologist actually, so maths and statistics aren't so scary to me, but certianly I'd doff my cap to a real engineer any day. I just like research, knowledge and knowing how stuff works more than anything. I'd say my real talent is finding resources (read: other people who have already done the hard work!). Got a few other good ones to share which I'll post up sometime. Actually, I found a PhD thesis on the mechanics of bows which was awesome, I'll post that up sometime soon.

Here's a file in an earlier version of excel: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/77412936/BowWoo ... .10.12.xls

Hamish
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Re: Ideal properties for bows & Australian woods

#4 Post by Hamish » Thu Oct 11, 2012 10:29 am

A noble quest to be sure.
Yes there are plenty of Aussie woods out there that will make good bows. To be equal to the 3 ie yew, osage, lemonwood, any other woods need to deliver an English longbow design, narrow without breaking in tension or chrysalling. If you make bows with wider flatter limbs, that opens up the useable Australian timbers even more but, these timbers are not as impressive as the 3. South American timbers like Ipe and snakewood can provide 50-60lb draws with a maximum width of 3/4" on an english longbow. That is about as impressive as I have seen. Material selection and craftsmanship need to be top notch to get away with it. Even these woods benefit in durability with a backing.

Some of the problems we have in Australia, is that many woods that will deliver the goods, are either, rare, grow in obscure places, like deserts and rainforests, or are from specimens that don't grow to a size to be considered a commercial timber enterprise by the timber industry, and aren't often found on woodstacks of timber sellers. The quality of material necessary for a bow, ie straight grain the full length of the timber, means that even if a suitable specimen can get found, it usually has been cut by the timber industry to maximise the greatest yield of boards, rather than for bowyers. Useable wood does increase if you have access to bamboo, or hickory backings.

I have found it easier to acquire more recognisable imported woods, either direct from overseas in billet form, or from local timber sellers.
As for saffronheart I have made many hickory backed bows from it because I haven't found a piece of sawn timber straight enough to make a self bow. Then again some guys in Qld have saffronheart growing in their backyards.

Good luck with the quest.
Hamish.

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mikaluger
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Re: Ideal properties for bows & Australian woods

#5 Post by mikaluger » Thu Oct 11, 2012 8:57 pm

Hi Rook,

I cant see PNG Malas on your list, I would like to see the data on that and where it rates. It is by far the best material I have used for a flatbow.
Welcome to the forum by the way!!!!
Mick.

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GrahameA
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Re: Ideal properties for bows & Australian woods

#6 Post by GrahameA » Fri Oct 12, 2012 6:12 am

Welcome Rook.

Now is that a Chess piece or a bird?
Rook wrote:... A bow is a spring, ....
Yes, yes and yes.

From a design viewpoint there is an issue in that there is a fixation in australia of designing things from a Euro-centric viewpoint and try to make Aust' materials behave like them. Add to this we suffer in that we Aust' tends to look at things from "crude" viewpoint. i.e. The nation would prefer to sell trees as "Woodchip" rather than Fine Quaity Furniture. There was a time when Austrailian Red Cedar was used for making "Butter Boxes".

Lastly, welcome to the forum.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

Hamish
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Re: Ideal properties for bows & Australian woods

#7 Post by Hamish » Fri Oct 12, 2012 8:45 am

Hi Grahame, I get your point about eurocentric design, it definitely was an issue with bowyers in the early 20thC, with the english longbow design being seen as superior to "Native" designs. A good bow doesn't have to be made like an elb.
My point is that some woods can make elb's safely, as well as wider flatter, less stressed designs. Other woods will make excellent bows only if the limbs are wider and flatter. Woods like the big 3 fall into the first category. I think if you want to talk about ideal properties for bows, an ideal Australian wood, needs to compare favourably to the performance of a big 3 timber, to be seen as a credible rival.

I think Tim Bakers theory about wood and density for design in the Bowyers Bible is excellent. Yet it is still a generalization, there are many exceptions to the rule. Unfortunately for us here in Australia the eucalypts in general fall into this exception. By his theories the density of many eucalypts should make excellent narrow limbed bows. Even though he had tried only a limited sample, his results found the flatbows needed to be made much wider than the wood's density suggested, to avoid chrysalling and tension breaks.
Hamish.

Rook
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Re: Ideal properties for bows & Australian woods

#8 Post by Rook » Fri Oct 12, 2012 7:27 pm

Cheers for the words of welcome guys, good to be here.

Hamish: I take your point about the best of Australian woods. Most of the stuff you can get in boards is a few restricted species, often sawed to make pretty floorboards or as simply as possible. I've got some other resources I think can help us to find bush species and I'd love to cut my own timber sometime. I also kind of agree with your thoughts about making ELB's safely. My take on it is different though, I'm interested in long, thick, flatbows of a longbow style, but D section doesn't interest me much. Moreso, in looking for good Aussie woods, I'm interested in woods that can be made into bows that are as thick as possible, to minimise limb weight for draw weight. I do however think that the list as is makes an interesting point: A wide design with a light wood may be lighter for the same draw weight than a wood that can be made thicker and less wide.

If you assume a bow is stable and wont fail, keep all factors like draw length, draw weight and limb length equal, surely the only factor that matters is the weight of the limb? Wide, thin, thick in depth, they all are factors that predict the weight of a bow (mass, not draw) and when density and strength are added into the mix a lighter weaker wood making a bow that has a higher volume could still beat out a strong and dense lesser volume bow, resulting in a faster cast I guess.

Anyway, it's only worth speculating to a certain extent. A lot of woods make nice bows, plenty to experiment with!

GreahameA: Both!

I know what you mean about woodchips and such... and we name all our trees after euro trees. hah!

Mikaul: Found it, here's a link: http://www.lumberbank.co.nz/species-malas/

Comes out pretty good, 41grams/10cm section using the lower end of its density. Up there.

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Re: Ideal properties for bows & Australian woods

#9 Post by Rook » Sat Oct 13, 2012 5:38 pm

Hamish wrote: My point is that some woods can make elb's safely, as well as wider flatter, less stressed designs. Other woods will make excellent bows only if the limbs are wider and flatter. Woods like the big 3 fall into the first category. I think if you want to talk about ideal properties for bows, an ideal Australian wood, needs to compare favourably to the performance of a big 3 timber, to be seen as a credible rival.
Hamish.
Okay Hamish, I liked your thoughts so I've done a couple things. First, I've adjusted the variables to make them more realistic, using the dimensions of the bow I'm currently making to guide a little tech drawing and come up with some better figures. My original version had an unrealistic bending radius of 55cm and a bow length of 140cm, which would have you stretching most woods too far. Indeed, the second thing I've done is include a column for ELB criteria, indicating whether the wood could be used to make a bow whos thickness is 5/8ths or more of its width: with the old figures, only Osage Orange qualified.

New variables are: 160cm length, 20cm Brace (probably a little high for me I think, but round figures make life easy), 40lbs(18kg) draw weight, 65cm draw length, calculated bend radius of 90cm. As you guys have predicted, many Australian woods don't qualify for longbow dimensions, but there's a few that do, some of which are commercially available as timber. Blackbutt has been catching my eye for a while now... I reckon that's my next wood to try.

Here's a link: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/77412936/BowWoo ... .10.12.xls

EDIT: One thing I don't get from the original post that helped me calculate all this (LINK) is whether or not these are calculations for one limb, and if so, should they be half weight? I think they account for the fact this is a one limb calculation by doubling the bending radius when calculating max thickness... I'll have to contact the author to confirm.

EDIT 2: I've changed the spreadsheet so it now includes a front sheet where you can enter your own figures for draw weight, limb length and draw length. I figure with a little work, this could be combined with the data from 'building bows with maths' to simplify (some forms of) bow design.

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Re: Ideal properties for bows & Australian woods

#10 Post by GrahameA » Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:04 am

Morning All.

A suggestion for anyone who is interested in timber for bows. A good startpoint is Chapters 2 and 3 of Volume 1 of "The Traditional Bowyers Bible". The rest of the book is a very good read as well.
Grahame.
Shoot a Selfbow, embrace Wood Arrows, discover Vintage, be a Trendsetter.

"Unfortunately, the equating of simplicity with truth doesn't often work in real life. It doesn't often work in science, either." Dr Len Fisher.

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yeoman
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Re: Ideal properties for bows & Australian woods

#11 Post by yeoman » Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:05 pm

I've only just stumbled along this thread. I hate arriving so late to such high-value conversations.

Rook, you have it spot on in a number of respects. The most efficient bow of any one timber is one that is as thick as possible for the draw length without sustaining plastic deformation (set).

Like you, I prefer the long flatbow design, rather than the usual 'English' longbow or shorter, wider flatbow. I also have a soft spot for Holmegaard designs, but again usually in longer versions.

I had a theory about timber of my own that I had typed up but have now deleted. It probably would make little sense at the moment, but in any case it regards stress mitigators used by different sorts of trees. I might post it one day.

One error that many people make is to use an MoR as a definitive number when making calculations of how a bow of any particular wood will behave. If you make a bow designed to experience just a little bit less than the MoR at full draw, that bow will have horrible chrysals, and/or set, and/or will break anyway.

A bend test will show that most woods behave quite differently up to the MoR. Some will have what appear to be a fairly steady line on a deflection vs set graph, while some will start with a flatline which they keep for quite some time, before suddenly spiking and failing with little notice.

In my own bend testing though, I have found that many woods will accept a bending stress that produces an acceptable amount of set (which is about 8% of total beam deflection) when the wood is stressed to about 60% of the final MoR. Now, depending on the wood the actual figure will be a little above or below this number.

When I first discovered this, I was 'Archimedes-level-excited', as I thought I had discovered something new and original to contribute to the bowyer's community. Then I was alerted to the fact that someone else, I think it might have been Robert Elmer, had discovered the same thing in the 1940s or some such. Big disappointment in a way, but also encouraging in that someone else found the same as me.

I think I have a metric by which woods can be compared without individual bend tests and bows of each being made and chronographed. However it is late and I need a clear mind to explainify it to myself before I put it out here. Suffice to say though that it involves Strain, MoE, Radius of Curvature, and thickness. Where's the MoR? Well, Strain is a function of the stiffness (MoE) and bending stress (MoR).

Good to have you on board, Rook!
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Re: Ideal properties for bows & Australian woods

#12 Post by Rook » Mon Oct 15, 2012 11:56 pm

Hey Yeoman, thanks for the comments. I'd love to hear your theories, I think the more we throw these around the better. Your point about MOR and including a safety factor to avoid crysals & set is a good one; in the original thread I linked from paleo planet the poster included a fudge factor of 10% I think it was; I've included no such safety factor. When you look at this graph, which (as I understand it) primarily relates to the modulus of elasticity rather than the modulus of rupture, you can see a certain point where the material stops deforming elastically (without permanent change) and starts to plastically (permanently) deform:

Image

MOR is more about the point of breakage however.

I work/study at a university, and I'm half tempted to go talk to someone in engineering about this kind of stuff, to get an expert's advice. I'll bet they'd be very interested. But seriously, post your thoughts, I'm very interested. :D

GrahameA: Mmmm, I reckon TBB is a pretty crap guide to timber selection, beyond some ideas for US/Euro species. I love the articles and the whole series, but for timber selection.... Aussie timber gets the treatment of "eucalyptus" as a single category. Bah!

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yeoman
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Re: Ideal properties for bows & Australian woods

#13 Post by yeoman » Tue Oct 16, 2012 5:19 am

That's a nice diagram. No idea where it's from, but useful for our purposes.

I would design a bow that experiences a bending stress at full draw somewhere from '2' to just past '3'. A really brittle wood like pine or some eucalypts should be below '2', while other woods like apple can be a bit past '3'.

A 'fudge' factor of 10% is nowhere near enough. Bows with bending stresses which are 90% of the breaking stress will have enormous set, or be covered in chrysals to the point of looking like a dried apple.

The engineers might be interested. In the 1930s and 1940s it was engineers that first brought scientific objectivity to bow design and manufacture, and greatly advanced 'common understanding' of such.

Dave
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Re: Ideal properties for bows & Australian woods

#14 Post by Rook » Tue Oct 16, 2012 9:36 am

Ah sorry, didn't really give any context to the graph. It's a diagram of strain or the yield point of a material. Force is, I believe on the vertical axis, while strain (distance of bend) is on the horizontal. From point 1 to point 2, elastic deformation happens linearly (i.e.: in a contant ratio, for every 1 unit of force you will get 1*x units of bend). From point 2 to 3, elastic deformation is greater than linear, changing as more force is added. At point 3, plastic deformation occurs (yield point I believe) and the material is permanently deformed.

Not that I really understand all this, but its fun to try. :P

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