First Bow..........American Ash Flatbow/longbow.

[mikaluger]

Hi Guy's,

I have been watching the forums for awhile, and have been working up to having a go at making longbow.
I went to Mathews timber in melbourne and got some suitable Ash, keeping 2 staves for an English Longbow, which will be next.
American Ash Flatbow, i just finished tillering today and achieved approx 45lbs @ 28". 72" nock to nock, 6.5" brace height.

[mikaluger]

at 28"

at%2028%2522.jpg (173.07 KiB) Viewed 6513 times

at%2021%2522.jpg (199.47 KiB) Viewed 6513 times

[mikaluger]

Now I need some advice.
I am not sure on my tillering job, any comments would be helpful.
As a total novice, what sort of arrows should I get? The bow is real nice, but useless without arrows!!!!!! It does not have an arrow shelf.
I will be target shooting with this bow.
I have read that heat treating the belly can have advantages for Ash, some advice on this would be great!
I have glued some merbau nocks and a spotted gum riser/handle on tonight. I will take some more photos once it's finished.

Thanks in advance,
Mick.

[rodlonq]

Gidday Mick,

Wecome to the Ozbow site, great introduction mate.

I am no expert but your new bow looks bloody good to me. Congratulations on getting your first board bow to full draw tiller (I've broke 3 so far ). Looking forward to seeing the pics with handles and tips done and some finish on it.

Once again, I am no expert on arras either but I would go for wood, 5/16" would probably be heavy enough and spined around 30-35# (using Stu Millers calculator ). I would wait for confirmation from one of the local gurus though.

Looking forward to seeing pics of your ELB as well mate, keep up the good work.

Cheers........... Rod

[GrahameA]

Hi Mick.

Looks great. I would just take it out and shoot it. You will learn more from shooting it than all the comments - the next one you make will be better.

As a total novice, what sort of arrows should I get? The bow is real nice, but useless without arrows!!!!!! It does not have an arrow shelf.
I will be target shooting with this bow.

My understanding is that the original AMO arrow spine data was built from all wood flatbows. So with the bow being 45lb @28" I would just grab some 40/45lb shafts fit 125gn points to them and they would be in the ballpark.

Biggest piece of help - buy some bullet headed point that are interanll threaded. They are really hard to pull off a shaft and will make you popular with other archers. (There will be a better chance of arches using alloy/carbon arrows losing a point than you.)

Points are available John McDonald in Sydney (AMSO128)and runs a very good mail order service.

AMSO128@tpg.com.au

[Gringa Bows]

Looks good,.........Welcome to Ozbow Mick.

[Hamish]

It looks pretty darn good. Nice spare staves too. Another check I like to do, is look at the bow when it is unstrung, not just for overall stringfollow, but to see if one limb has been overstressed at some point during tillering. It will manifest as a much greater amount of string follow in one limb. I don't think it will be a problem with that bow.
How wide are the limbs?

Hamish.

[Stickbow Hunter]

G'day Mick and welcome to the site. It looks like you have done a great job for your first attempt.

For arrows you will have to experiment a bit but I would try 45 -50# as well as the 40 -45# shafts.

Jeff

[mikaluger]

Hi guy's,

managed to do some more work today.
Shaped the nocks and grip, Heat treated the belly, sanded the whole thing and finished with a coat of hand rubbed Tru Oil (gun stock finish) and then a coat of some heated up Finnish Mix (equal parts beeswax,gum turpentine and boiled linseed oil.) All rubbed in with 0000 steelwool.

Have ordered some strings. Just need arrows now.

Hamish.
I do have a little more string follow in on the top limb. I think I stressed it a little getting it to the short string, I will watch that in my next bow.
The Bow is 38mm or 1.1/2" at the fade outs up to 18mm or 11/16" at the tips.

Just trying to decide if it needs a leather grip. I will have to work out how to make one!!!!!

[Stickbow Hunter]

A finish on it brings out the grain nicely!

Jeff

[Brumbies Country]

It looks really good for a first bow Mick. Looks like you have chosen well re the grain of the ash. Let us know how it shoots.

[bigbob]

Great effort and great timber you got too!

[mikaluger]

thanks guy's,
yeah the timber grain is perfect, it is tight and runs all the way up the staves! I used the 3rd best for this bow, the best 2 i have left to make 2 ELB's. I just have to find some Hickory for the backs, I have Wenge for the core on those two. The 4th piece is not so good, my boys might get a bow from that.

Here's the leatherstrip handle grip I just did.
Gives the bow a real trad look.

[twisted limb]

G'Day Mick,
well done on a beautifull first bow. Love the grip.
If you built that you'll have no trouble sorting out arrows mate.
John.

[Hamish]

String follow is low, and looks even. I don't get too worried unless there is more than 1/2" difference between the limbs, despite looking good braced or at full draw.
Really good job!
Hamish.

[rodlonq]

Gidday Mick,

Your finished product looks great, the handle and tips are real highlights and your leather grip is very well done. Will be good to find out how your creation shoots (I am sure it will be fine).

My understanding is that the original AMO arrow spine data was built from all wood flatbows. So with the bow being 45lb @28" I would just grab some 40/45lb shafts fit 125gn points to them and they would be in the ballpark.

For arrows you will have to experiment a bit but I would try 45 -50# as well as the 40 -45# shafts.

Looks like I gave you the bum drum Re: arras (as I suspected, hence the disclaimer ). Sorry to highjack your thread mate, but the question is begging to be asked. Grahame or Jeff - or anyone else, can you see what I did wrong in the snapshot of the calculator (above in this thread) to come up with such a low spine estimate. I used it to estimate and order some shafts and now I am thinking I may have wasted my effort because they could be 10 - 15 # too light, not to mention (prize goose = learn to keep trap shut).

Back to this thread, congratulations on a great looking first bow Mick.

Cheers........ Rod

[Stickbow Hunter]

Rod, I don't use charts mate and IMO people tend to over complicate things now days. I just go by experience and for me with self bows shot off the hand I use shafts spined at the high side of the draw weight so in this case 45-50#. It would also be worth trying the 40-45# ones. That is just a starting point and Mick will have to see what suits best for him.

With my composite longbows I always shoot 10-15# over spine and with my shorter 26.5" draw they are probably more like 20 plus lbs over spine but they fly great for me.

Jeff

[mikaluger]

thanks guys,

I'm glad I didn't go ahead and just order any thing!!!!!
I still haven't ordered any arrows yet. I have googled a few arrow makers, but most seem to be overseas. I would rather spend my hardearned in AUS if possible, so if you guys know of someone let me know!!!!!!!!

I'm sure I could make them, but for that i would rather be shown.(down the track.)

Thanks.

[bigbob]

Mikaluger there are quite a few people who make arrows who post on here at times and if you look under trad craft section I am sure you will find what you want, a great product and aussie made as well! congrats again on your bow it is excellent.

[KellyG]

Looks good,
On your next one get it bending more near your fades it looks stiff there, but if it shoots have fun. Over all it is a great looking bow.
Kelly

[rodlonq]

Have a look here Mick.

http://www.swallace.spiderweb.com.au/

Cheers........... Rod

[mikaluger]

Hi Guys,

Well I had an interesting couple of days.
I got my strings that I ordered, and shot my first few arrows.

Lesson 1- In your haste to try out new bow, do not forget to put on your arm guard=nice bruised forearm!

Quickly worked out I had to raise the brace height, from 6.5" to 7.5" as the flesh below the back of my thumb on my bow hand, was getting a beating. The string I ordered is Dacron B50/500, now I have read a bit more I might have to try a fastflite string to stop the string follow. Not to sure on this.
I think I might have to put the bow back on the tiller as I think the upper limb is a little stiffer now I have heat treated the belly, unless my eyes are deceiving me! you fellas might be able to tell by the photos. It shoots and draws fine.
Bow is super smooth, does not vibrate and is not loud. I think this is good. It even groups well, and I only have half an Idea of what i am doing!(at ten metres anyway ) I am using some cheap redzone carbons until I get some woods. I still have not drawn the bow to full draw, have shot approx 3 doz arrows.

I had to stop breaking it in, as the arrows were drawing blood, as i am shooting off a virgin hand. Might have to invest in a bowhand glove i'm thinking.
Will have to go to the local archery club (diamond valley archers) and see if there is any Trad Guys there, and get some pointers.

[Bill]

Nice, well done.

[Stickbow Hunter]

The bow looks good mate. I think the problem with your bow hand would be because of the vanes (at least they look like plastic vanes) and also if you have your nocking point too low that will drive the back of the arra into your bow hand. When you use feathers (make sure you have a dob of glue on the front of them) and the correct nocking point you won't even feel the arras cross your bow hand.

Jeff

[GrahameA]

Afternoon.

I had to stop breaking it in, as the arrows were drawing blood, as i am shooting off a virgin hand. Might have to invest in a bowhand glove i'm thinking.

If you keep your hand in the same position and raise the nocking point the arrows should clear your hand - less pain and blood

$0:02 worth of opinion. Carbons off the hand are not a good choice. If the shaft has a splinter/sliver raised and you drive it into your hand you will not be happy.

[mikaluger]

Thanks guys,

Raise the nocking point, I will try that tomorrow when the swelling goes down. They are plastic plastic vanes.

I will bite the bullet, and order some Feathered woods tonight, as graeme says I really don't want a carbon splinter through my hand.

Thanks for your advice.

[matt61]

Mika, A quick fix to make arrows with vanes shoot a lot better out of a tradbow is to remove/cut off the vane that runs
over the shelf/your knuckle,also wearing a riggers glove on your bow hand will reduce the chance of coping a splinter.
I have even had feathers driven through the knuckle of my bow hand.I shot ABA target and hunted with arrows for years that had only one feather that ran over the shelf and the other two were vanes and they worked well especially in wet weather.
Cheers
Matt

[Dennis La Varenne]

Mikaluger,

As both Jeff and Grahame advise in regard to the lower bow feather digging in to your bowhand, lift the string nock point about 2mm and you should not have any more problems. Jeff's advice about putting a generous dob of glue on the leading edge of the feather is an old and sound trick which works. Our ancestors used to put a bit of whipping there to cover up the feather point as well.

With regard to your tillering, it looks pretty good to me. As Kelly says, it looks a bit stiffish through the middle of the bow, but that is not necessarily a problem. Your limbs are bending evenly through their length.

I would however have taken a simpler approach in laying out my limbs. The picture you show of the boards from Matthews is how I would have left the grain laying in my limbs, ie with the edge grain showing on the back and belly of the limbs. It is far stronger and stiffer than having it lay across the limb as you have done. There is nothing wrong with it laying horizontally, it is just that with a board bow, it is stiffer, saves a lot of work and is far less wasteful of expensive wood.

On the left is the outline of a flatbow section and on the right, that of an ELB section. IN both cases, as you can see, if you had known about laying out your board to make a bow using this particular orientation, you would have gotten at least two of each design of bow from each board.

Chasing a growth ring is very wasteful and involves unnecessary work and probably why our ancestors used the first layer of wood under the bark as the back of the bow. It was simply less unnecessary work and small saplings could be used. The traditional English Longbow is prodigiously wasteful of wood, especially when a large (for Yew) diameter tree is felled and only the outer 2 inches or so are used for the stave. All the inner part of the trunk which is every bit as good wood was wasted just because it did not have the sapwood.

I have attached your picture again with the way I would have laid out a bow using these boards. You may like to try making a bow using this orientation another time.

Also, if you ever want to increase your bow's draw weight and make it bend further into the limb, just cut a second set of string nocks about 1 inch in from the present set and go from there. Leave the old nocks alone. No additional tillering will be required.

[mikaluger]

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for your advice about laying the limbs across the grain, I never would of thought this would work. I will try that.

Mick.

[Brumbies Country]

Hi Denis

I was very interested in your comments re "Chasing a growth ring is very wasteful and involves unnecessary work and probably why our ancestors used the first layer of wood under the bark as the back of the bow. It was simply less unnecessary work and small saplings could be used."

Re grain i have tried to adhere what you say here re board bows which I have made mostly from hickory. The five or so unbacked hickory board bows have all eventually broke or been retired, the longest lasting me two and a half years and retired after a substantial spinter raised on the back, but also because it had got a fair bit of set. I did shoot it a lot. I was starting to think that with the next board bow I'd need to follow a growth ring.

Meanwhile with the small number of bows I've made from staves I thought after reading all the editions of the Traditional Bowyers bible that you needed to religiously follow a growth ring or you were inevitably doomed to failure. I relate to what you say re using the first layer of wood under the bark, but if the quality of the first couple of gowth rings were not so good would you not have to chase what looked like a better quality back for your bow.

Simon