Hints n tips on perfect Glue lines

[stringnstik]

Ha this is a question not a list of answers
Sorry to disappoint.
Ok so Im gluing up my riser or lb handle with various woods and I want zero glue lines.
What sort of techniques do you guys use?

Ill let you in on what I tried/heard.

First of all.
Dampen the sides.
The carpenter at work said to dampen the inserted piece so it swells up a little. Then when you clamp it the fibres fill the gaps a little better. Im not sure this is ok for epoxies tho?

I decided to try straight matches first. Curves and inserts can wait till Im more experienced.
I figured a plane would be my best bet, electric (sorry trad) but you always get that scallop at the ends unless your real careful hmm how to fix...
So I inverted everything...OH&S reps look away now please.
Made a jig to securely hold the plane upside down.Se it to .5mm scrape.
Tacked the thin wood insert (side to be planed) to a finger saving scrap piece and slid her on in. (velcro tag to hold the on button down)
Excellent results. Im not sure I could get anything smoother and squarer than that. Certainly removed the circular saw marks after a few passes.

Of course this only works for flat pieces. To insert a curved piece which has been band sawed out and thus has blade marks no doubt requires some very patient and meticulous sanding?

[GrahameA]

Hi Mark.

So I inverted everything...OH&S reps look away now please.
Made a jig to securely hold the plane upside down.Se it to .5mm scrape.

Ah. A homemade Jointer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jointer.

Of course this only works for flat pieces. To insert a curved piece which has been band sawed out and thus has blade marks no doubt requires some very patient and meticulous sanding?

Pay a visit to Greybeard - the home of sanding.

[Steven J]

I used a home made drum sander in the drill press at work until I purchased a belt linisher with a work table over the drive drum.

After cutting carefully with a bandsaw it takes about 15 minutes to get a perfect fit. Hold the pieces together up towards a light and look for the gaps.

A think sheet of fibre spacer does wonders to hide any hairline imperfections.

The sander is excellent for grinding the fades on the risers too. A larger diameter causes less problems with scalloping the surface being worked. Just remember to always keep things moving.

Steve

[rodlonq]

Hi Mark,

I am no expert but everything I have read indicates you want a rough sanded surface to ensure a good bond (40 grit is recommended). The planer will give a nice smooth surface but the bond strength may not be there.

As far as getting good glue lines, a good fit is mandatory and lots of pressure/force to expel as much glue as possible. The air hose press for laminating typically exerts 60 - 70 PSI so over a riser block 18" x 1.5" = 27 sq.in you need 1620 - 1890 pounds (740 - 860 kg) force to apply the same load. It seems to give good glue lines.

I think Wayno does this by placing the glued up block between a couple of bigger blocks, on top of his jack and then jack up the ute with it overnight

Cheers.... Rod

[Steven J]

I think Wayno does this by placing the glued up block between a couple of bigger blocks, on top of his jack and then jack up the ute with it overnight

Wow! The glued timber gets pretty slippery. I am thinking of horrific injuries here...

I just use about 3-4 G-clamps. I only add the extra one or two to spread the load more evenly and to help control the slipping.

Also the glue is acting on a micro scale. Sure the rough surface gives a greater surface area, but when a glue bond breaks, it is usually the timber either side of the bond, indicating that the adhesion to the timber was more than adequate. I have never had a lamination failure and have used 60 grit (sometimes pretty worn) to grind all my fades.

For straight cuts, I am pretty happy to glue timber straight out of the table saw if it is running nice and smooth.

Steve

[GrahameA]

Hi Steve.

I used a home made drum sander in the drill press at work until I purchased a belt linisher with a work table over the drive drum.

How do you lock the the sandpaper on the drum? Recognise the centre piece and it looks as if the disc is MDF. Just need to lock my sandpaper in place - cam always use double sided tape I guess

[rodlonq]

Yer right Steve,

I must been thinking of someone else. I don't think Wayno would do something that dangerous Maybe he had the jack on top of the blocks........ or maybe not at all?

Cheers..... Rod

[stringnstik]

Pay a visit to Greybeard - the home of sanding.

hhahah I am

home made jointer?

like this one?


interesting comments maybe im being a bit too hard on myself. I shall have to give a curved one a go

I did mod my spindle sander so I could grind lam like slithers. I think maybe because it oscillates(up n down) it causes problems. More investigation is required.

Is the drum sander you show. a solid drum or a rubber one? I wonder if that "give" in the rubber causes scalloping. Or the gouge marks i sometimes got.. It was a quick arvo try so maybe I need to give it another go and be a little bit more systematic.

[Steven J]

The sanding drum is solid MDF. I glued it up from a number of pieces, cut it to rough shape, screwed on the metal thingy (can't think of a suitable technical name) and turned it down to shape like you would with a lathe. The sandpaper is held on using contact adhesive, but also tucked into a cut with a piece of steel wedged in to hold it firm.

Steve

[GrahameA]

Hi Steve

The sandpaper is held on using contact adhesive, but also tucked into a cut with a piece of steel wedged in to hold it firm.

Tah.

[Steven J]

Mark,

I have been thinking about your jointer/plane. Maybe you could add extension tables to either end. That may take out some of the danger of balancing the timber and give you a more accurate result also.

Steve

[greybeard]

Hi Mark,

I usually bandsaw the shape and clean up with the rounded end of the sanding stick.

For moderate curves I use the 14" saw with a 19mm blade and for tighter curves the 12" saw with a 6mm blade.

I endeavour to work to a tolerance equivalent to that of a sheet of copy paper.

The biggest problem is keeping everything true i.e. a cut down the handle has to be at 90 degrees to the sides of the handle.

When using highlight/contrast strips keep them thin enough so you can push them into the curve using moderate to heavy thumb pressure. Thicker strips should cut or steamed to shape.

Excessive clamp pressure should not be used to try to fix a dodgy joint. Excessive pressure can result in a "dry" joint. The dodgy part will have glue but the neatly mated parts will have most or all of the glue squeezed out.

Patience and elbow grease has its rewards.

The photo shows some of my work in progress. Forgive me for the poor quality of the photo.

Bow Handles.jpg (56.37 KiB) Viewed 2654 times

Daryl.

[looseplucker]

I believe the tech term for:

"metal thingy"

is: "wigwam for a goose's bridle"

Where did you get the metal thingy?

[Steven J]

The metal thingy came from a shop bought drum sander (from carba-tec). It didn't work well - It was only 3.5" in diameter and had a foam backing and therefore rounded the edges of the work piece being sanded.

I tried another brand and had to buy a whole set but they were just as bad.

So... I salvaged the parts and made something that worked.

Steve

[Gringa Bows]

i've got the same things from carbitec a couple of years ago they didnt work too good,so now thanks Steve i have an idea what to do with them i trried the ones from binghams too,but wasn't too impressed with them either so ive been using my multitool to do fade outs.........

[bigbob]

great work Daryl quite impressive. Rod you have me thinking as I was planning on getting the 3'' drum sander from binghams to fit my big pedestal drill. Now i dont know which way to go thats cost effective.

[Gringa Bows]

Bob,i think the main problem i had with the one i have is i tightend it up a bit much and it went a slight keg shape,so it dished in the ramp of the fade out area,i have no patience so i just gave it a miss and used my multitool ..............

[bigbob]

Damn rod I was hoping you might be able to loan me some patience, as mine never stayed around long enough to know it. I was just putting new bathroom washers in and I'm sure the neighbours all had cotton wool jambed in their ears. Damn plumbers had siliconed all around the spigot nut and i had to peel it all off just to undo the spigot.I might still have a go first with the Bingham drum sander first. Once I get it that is. I am waiting on parts for my outboard from US.,so I can get it going and sell the tinny so i have some money---------sigh!

[stringnstik]

Photos tomorrow, if I can work out how to get em off this newfangled camera:)

I think the fence was the problem on previous grinds. I made up a slightly better one and got some very good results. I think I will make myself a larger solid drum tho later. The osc does have the advantage that it reduces any chance of "bulges" or barrelling in the slither/lam, caused by a bad drum or bad sandpaper. So Ill stick with it for now. I managed a 1mm thick slither for my LB handle highlight last night. I reckon I could go thinner, but I needed 1mm. I do need to work out an easy way to feed the job thru. Lams will be ok but the 200mm longish slithers are a tad tricky.

Glue lines look good but I guess we wont really know till I start shaping it.
The elm wood looks like it will come up a treet

[bigbob]

My only worry would be where the emery paper joins on the drum. Do you have any worries it might give an uneven grind?

[Steven J]

My only worry would be where the emery paper joins on the drum. Do you have any worries it might give an uneven grind?

It has never bothered me. I speed the drill press up to minimise bumping. With the large radius of the grinder, the outside is running so fast that you don't notice any vibration or bumping where the ends overlap.

Steve

[rodlonq]

The metal thingy came from a shop bought drum sander (from carba-tec). It didn't work well - It was only 3.5" in diameter and had a foam backing and therefore rounded the edges of the work piece being sanded.

I tried another brand and had to buy a whole set but they were just as bad.

So... I salvaged the parts and made something that worked.

Steve

Thanks for the idea for making use of the drive mandrel from the Cabratec drum sander Steve,

I have been down the same track as LB Rod. First the Carbatec, then the Binghams drum sander and now the Multitool belt linisher mounted on the side of a bench.

I still really like the Binghams drum sander in the drill press for cleaning up excess glue etc, the 40 grit sleeves they supply tear it off in no time. Also I think my biggest problem is my chuck doesn't seem to run absolutely true . The shaft is fine because my bigger tapered shank drills run perfectly.

Cheers, Rod

[stringnstik]

ok lads here we go.

Some pics of the handle as it came out of the clamps and then after a quick wiz thru the planer so we can get a look at the lines.

All in all pretty happy with my first attempt. the horizontal highlight almost lines up just a smidge out if you look close enough.
Curve highlight came out ok too.

[Steven J]

Looks good to me. It is hard to glue up, cut then reglue and get things to line up perfectly. I think you have done a great job.

Steve

[rodlonq]

Well dome Mark. What materials are you using?

Cheers....... Rod

[stringnstik]

thanks Guys, proof will be in the shaping

Bottom piece is Blackheart Sassafras.
thin horizontal slither is Tas Myrtle
top piece is Elm
Curved highlight is ermm..Vulcanised fibre sheet. I had a piece of maple but boched it. I was running out of time to cut another so I used this gasket material. After all its compressed paper, which is wood pulp Yes?!

Thanks steve .. the crossover is in fact better under mag scrutiny..if I only show you the right side :lol I suspect not everything was square in the cutting process. Its a little out on the other end. But Itll do for this little minion.

[Gringa Bows]

looks real good Mark.............

[greybeard]

When I worked in the paper industry [fine quality printing paper and industrial papers] the company manufactured gasket paper for Payne, Byrne and Blackford who diecut the material to the various shapes required. I believe the material had a high cotton fiber content and other additives.

http://www.ehow.com/facts_7595573_gaskets-made.html

Daryl.