Hi!
Thank you for the positive feedback on the static tip bows. I apologize for being a little brief in the detail of the bows construction but I found it was "a suck and see" type of exercise when I first started making these bows.
Because I wanted to build durability into the bows I departed from the traditional Turkish method of constructing such bows. It may help to have a full sized drawing of the intended bow to use as a reference during construction. The bows shown in the previous photos consist of three core laminations plus a bamboo back and belly. I prepare the laminations; handle section and siyahs to a common width so that correct alignment can be maintained. Depending on the core material and required bow weight the laminations are between 1 and 2mm thick. Thin laminations allow you to achieve tighter curves.
The process that I use may have eight or more glue ups but I found this necessary because you could have nine or more components to bring together. I will try to be brief in the detail. The first glue up entails gluing the handle and siyahs to a core lamination (belly side of handle and siyahs) using "G" clamps on a flat surface and having the lamination on edge. Use Gladwrap or packaging tape on your bench top to stop the components becoming a permanent feature of your bench. You may need to use scraps of timber to protect the laminations from the clamps.
This lamination then becomes the platform on which to complete the bow. Using the adjustable form you can then apply another lamination to the back of the handle and siyahs. By doing this the handle section and siyahs are firmly held in the bow. Before each glue up I do a dry clamp up to make sure the components fit correctly. With each lamination applied you will need to fade them out on the siyahs so that the final back and belly laminations fade out properly. For the final back and belly bamboo laminations the bigger the diameter of the pole the better which gives a flatter crown.
It is advisable to have the plan of the bow marked out on the back core lamination so you can remove the excess before applying the final back and belly laminations. If need be make a cardboard template to enable you to mark out the shape on the outer laminations. Cut the laminations to the template and remove the softer inner of the bamboo until you almost have a knife edge. By doing this you will get a natural taper in the lamination. The bamboo back is butt joined at the centre of the handle because I cut "twins" so that the nodes are equally spaced on both limbs. Similarly I do the same with the belly lamination but cut in such a manner that these nodes fall in between the nodes on the back. With the adjustable form you can move the position of the posts and substitute different height posts to achieve the desired shape. I use "F" clamps on the posts to pull the bow into the shape and small "G" clamps on the limbs between the posts.
You can modify the posts to suit each application. If you are accurate with your laminations the bow will be "almost tillered" when it comes out of the form.
In your design allow up to an inch or so on the end posts to allow for string follow.
I also use this form for deflex longbows etc. and will put in a separate post for a short longbow made on this form.
If you have truck loads of patience and time, about four years and want to make a bow in the traditional way there is book titled "Turkish Archery And The Composite Bow"(third edition)by Paul E. Klopsteg.
Hoping the above helps in some way to explain the process?
Daryl.
asian composite build-along
Moderator: Moderators
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- 02 Full View CoreWith Handle And Siyahs.jpg (19.87 KiB) Viewed 9335 times
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Last edited by greybeard on Wed Nov 02, 2011 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hi!
In my last posting I neglected to mention the little string bridges that stop the string going around the siyahs or limb depending on their width once you loose the arrow. I have found that the best way to determine the position is to draw the bow (using the tiller string) to the braced position on the tiller board and determine where the bow string will make contact. The bridge shown in the photo was glued to the limb and then bound with serving material. I apply Danish Oil over the serving to stop it moving.
Daryl.
In my last posting I neglected to mention the little string bridges that stop the string going around the siyahs or limb depending on their width once you loose the arrow. I have found that the best way to determine the position is to draw the bow (using the tiller string) to the braced position on the tiller board and determine where the bow string will make contact. The bridge shown in the photo was glued to the limb and then bound with serving material. I apply Danish Oil over the serving to stop it moving.
Daryl.
- String Bridge.jpg (70.91 KiB) Viewed 8000 times
Last edited by greybeard on Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
THANKS!!
Daryl
Your pictures and detailed explanation are worth anything!! They have filled in so many answers to questions raised during a long and frustrating process of trying to make a successful composite short bow. No amount of research on Atarn and other sites has helped quite as much as your thread posting. Goes to show there's no substitute for asking a bloke with more experience than myself.
The final picture of the siyah close-up not only explains how you set up your string bridge, but clearly shows the shape and taper of the siyah into the laminations. What timber did you use for the siyahs? Your moveable post set up is pretty much the same as the one I have been using but I like the large cicrcular form you used to get the final reflexed curve. Like yourself, glueing the raw bamboo is done in subsequent stages. However I have not tried two-stage glueing of the back and belly to the handle and siyahs with such thin mid-laminations.
Will finish this one, then start again on Mark 4 model.
Your pictures and detailed explanation are worth anything!! They have filled in so many answers to questions raised during a long and frustrating process of trying to make a successful composite short bow. No amount of research on Atarn and other sites has helped quite as much as your thread posting. Goes to show there's no substitute for asking a bloke with more experience than myself.
The final picture of the siyah close-up not only explains how you set up your string bridge, but clearly shows the shape and taper of the siyah into the laminations. What timber did you use for the siyahs? Your moveable post set up is pretty much the same as the one I have been using but I like the large cicrcular form you used to get the final reflexed curve. Like yourself, glueing the raw bamboo is done in subsequent stages. However I have not tried two-stage glueing of the back and belly to the handle and siyahs with such thin mid-laminations.
Will finish this one, then start again on Mark 4 model.
Hi!
The siyahs are hard rock maple and ironbark. The grain direction is slightly offset for more strength. The fadeout in the siyahs could have been a little finer.
Daryl.
The siyahs are hard rock maple and ironbark. The grain direction is slightly offset for more strength. The fadeout in the siyahs could have been a little finer.
Daryl.
- Siyah Detail.jpg (46 KiB) Viewed 8000 times
Last edited by greybeard on Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hi!
I have received several enquiries regarding certain details on the "Asian" style bow. The methods I use are by no means the only way to make the bow but more so what I have found what works for me. Don't be afraid to experiment.
All core laminations are parallel and I cut mine from the pole. I don't know of anyone who has had success using bamboo flooring. Of the 1,200 or so varieties of bamboo only a handful are suitable for bow making. The poles I get are bleached (by the sun, I think and are buff to yellow gold in colour) as poles also imported green but treated with something to kill the bugs.
From memory I think I am using Mosso (not sure if the spelling is correct). All bamboo bows seem to draw forever but appear sluggish in recovery unless under glass. Using thin a hard wood lamination such as iron bark with bamboo laminations I believe gives the bow more grunt and better recovery. As you would appreciate the hard wood needs to be thinner for the "Asian style" static tip bow as compared to a reflex / deflex longbow. Lamination thickness is determined by the width and length of the limbs. If using all bamboo core laminations stagger them so that the node areas are spread through the limb rather than lining up. To achieve this, the laminations have to be cut over length. The bamboo used for the back and belly laminations are cut to the plan of limbs and the softer inner pith of bamboo is removed so that the edges are almost a knife edge. The end result should be that the crown at the handle end of the lamination is 3 to 4 mm and at the tip about 1 mm. depending on pole diameter. If the nodes are a little rough they can be sanded a little but not flattened.
The core laminations back to belly were 1.8mm bamboo, 1mm ironbark and 2.8 mm bamboo.
I never do any tillering until the bows construction is complete.
When finishing the bow you can scrape the waxy rind off the surface but avoid scraping into the power fibres.
Daryl.
I have received several enquiries regarding certain details on the "Asian" style bow. The methods I use are by no means the only way to make the bow but more so what I have found what works for me. Don't be afraid to experiment.
All core laminations are parallel and I cut mine from the pole. I don't know of anyone who has had success using bamboo flooring. Of the 1,200 or so varieties of bamboo only a handful are suitable for bow making. The poles I get are bleached (by the sun, I think and are buff to yellow gold in colour) as poles also imported green but treated with something to kill the bugs.
From memory I think I am using Mosso (not sure if the spelling is correct). All bamboo bows seem to draw forever but appear sluggish in recovery unless under glass. Using thin a hard wood lamination such as iron bark with bamboo laminations I believe gives the bow more grunt and better recovery. As you would appreciate the hard wood needs to be thinner for the "Asian style" static tip bow as compared to a reflex / deflex longbow. Lamination thickness is determined by the width and length of the limbs. If using all bamboo core laminations stagger them so that the node areas are spread through the limb rather than lining up. To achieve this, the laminations have to be cut over length. The bamboo used for the back and belly laminations are cut to the plan of limbs and the softer inner pith of bamboo is removed so that the edges are almost a knife edge. The end result should be that the crown at the handle end of the lamination is 3 to 4 mm and at the tip about 1 mm. depending on pole diameter. If the nodes are a little rough they can be sanded a little but not flattened.
The core laminations back to belly were 1.8mm bamboo, 1mm ironbark and 2.8 mm bamboo.
I never do any tillering until the bows construction is complete.
When finishing the bow you can scrape the waxy rind off the surface but avoid scraping into the power fibres.
Daryl.
- Spokeshaving Pith.jpg (51.99 KiB) Viewed 8000 times
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- 1 Diagram.jpg (14.61 KiB) Viewed 9215 times
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- 72 inch Hardwood Lamination In 11 inch Circle.jpg (25.92 KiB) Viewed 9224 times
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- Bamboo and Ironbark Lams.jpg (38.07 KiB) Viewed 9224 times
Last edited by greybeard on Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Daryl,
Thanks again for your continued genersoity with sharing your experience and knowledge. I do however have another question for you.
What is the shape of your taper along the width of the limb? You mention using a template laid on the stave, but not what shape it is. Any chance of a scale drawing?
That pic of a 72" lamination in an 11" circle is awesome. Is that for a longbow or was it cut down for composite replicas?
Cheers,
Dave
Thanks again for your continued genersoity with sharing your experience and knowledge. I do however have another question for you.
What is the shape of your taper along the width of the limb? You mention using a template laid on the stave, but not what shape it is. Any chance of a scale drawing?
That pic of a 72" lamination in an 11" circle is awesome. Is that for a longbow or was it cut down for composite replicas?
Cheers,
Dave
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hardwood lamination
Daryl
I support Yeoman's comments. This really as been a really informative shared thread. I like the sandwich made from hardwood and hard rock maple for the siyahs - nice touch to add strength. Regarding the hardwood lamination, what other timbers would you recommend? I have tried hard rock maple and it seemed to work well with 2 lams of vertical flooring. I also have some nice veneer-thin strips of celery top from Tasmania and local WA hardwoods, marri and jarrah.
I support Yeoman's comments. This really as been a really informative shared thread. I like the sandwich made from hardwood and hard rock maple for the siyahs - nice touch to add strength. Regarding the hardwood lamination, what other timbers would you recommend? I have tried hard rock maple and it seemed to work well with 2 lams of vertical flooring. I also have some nice veneer-thin strips of celery top from Tasmania and local WA hardwoods, marri and jarrah.
Hi!
The shape of the taper depends on the width and length of the limbs. The core laminations are 35mm wide and where they meet the siyahs is about 18mm. The core (between the handle fadeout and siyah fadeout) was 21 inches. Once evaluating the dried core laminations by gently pulling the tips back while the handle is rested on the chest I get an idea of how the core will bend. At this point I mark out the pattern on the back lamination and remove the excess timber. Basically I go almost parallel to mid limb and then curve towards the siyahs. I then make the template off this which is transferred to the final back and belly laminations.. This profile may change slightly during final tillering. Although I may seem a little vague and as there are no mathematical or scientific calucations to cater for all the variations when dealing with natural fibres you have to run with a 'gut' feeling.
The photo of the 72" hardwood lamination was put in to show the versatility of hard wood but primarily was an experiment to find out how finely I could adjust my lamination grinder and have a uniform lamination thickness. The sample in the photo was under 1mm in thickness. The new bow will have less bamboo and more hardwood in the core but using thin laminations.
Celery top could work well but I have only had experience with it in longbows. When selecting hard woods any reasonably straight grained piece should suffice but remember to turn the laminations to allow for variations in grain direction. Usually I have found that the heavier the timber the better. The best advice I can offer is to try various timbers for their properties before putting them in the bow.
Daryl.
The shape of the taper depends on the width and length of the limbs. The core laminations are 35mm wide and where they meet the siyahs is about 18mm. The core (between the handle fadeout and siyah fadeout) was 21 inches. Once evaluating the dried core laminations by gently pulling the tips back while the handle is rested on the chest I get an idea of how the core will bend. At this point I mark out the pattern on the back lamination and remove the excess timber. Basically I go almost parallel to mid limb and then curve towards the siyahs. I then make the template off this which is transferred to the final back and belly laminations.. This profile may change slightly during final tillering. Although I may seem a little vague and as there are no mathematical or scientific calucations to cater for all the variations when dealing with natural fibres you have to run with a 'gut' feeling.
The photo of the 72" hardwood lamination was put in to show the versatility of hard wood but primarily was an experiment to find out how finely I could adjust my lamination grinder and have a uniform lamination thickness. The sample in the photo was under 1mm in thickness. The new bow will have less bamboo and more hardwood in the core but using thin laminations.
Celery top could work well but I have only had experience with it in longbows. When selecting hard woods any reasonably straight grained piece should suffice but remember to turn the laminations to allow for variations in grain direction. Usually I have found that the heavier the timber the better. The best advice I can offer is to try various timbers for their properties before putting them in the bow.
Daryl.
Hi!
I have included a picture of the finished rock maple and iron bark siyah as well as a useful tool to help shape the string grooves in the siyah that can't be done with a standard round file.
This tool/blade is used by ceramic tilers to cut shapes in wall tiles. It can be bent to shape to get into difficult areas of the siyah.
Daryl.
I have included a picture of the finished rock maple and iron bark siyah as well as a useful tool to help shape the string grooves in the siyah that can't be done with a standard round file.
This tool/blade is used by ceramic tilers to cut shapes in wall tiles. It can be bent to shape to get into difficult areas of the siyah.
Daryl.
- Siyah Detail.jpg (46 KiB) Viewed 8000 times
- Rod Saw Blade.JPG (41.16 KiB) Viewed 8000 times
Last edited by greybeard on Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
greybeard
That is an interesting tool and the photo is particularly useful to see how you handled the spliced siyah and string track. I have been out today gathering all the materials for a new composite, including rock maple and sheoak. Hope to start in the next few weeks after I complete some new footed shafts. Is there any chance of a PDF of the handle shape? I am having a difficult job getting the right fades to match on both the back and belly.
That is an interesting tool and the photo is particularly useful to see how you handled the spliced siyah and string track. I have been out today gathering all the materials for a new composite, including rock maple and sheoak. Hope to start in the next few weeks after I complete some new footed shafts. Is there any chance of a PDF of the handle shape? I am having a difficult job getting the right fades to match on both the back and belly.
Archangel,
The fadeouts in the picture are of the handle for my new bow.
After gluing the handle to the belly lamination I hand sand the fadeouts so that when the back lamination is glued there is a nice transition from handle to laminations. I also do this with the siyahs. The handle is 9" long, this measurement being determined by the overall length of the bow. The laminations are 50" in length. The siyahs will account for a loss of limb length of about 2" each. Out of the 50" we have lost 13" which leaves us 37" to spread over two working limbs. For these styles of bow you have to aim to achieve the maximum working limb length in the given overall length. In achieving this goal make sure that the handle or siyahs do not rob you of working limb length.
The new bow will be a little wider but thinner as I will be using a multi laminated all hardwood core which hopefully will yield better performance at the desired draw length. I have found that in designing these styles of bow the limbs must always be in front of the handle in the un- braced state otherwise the power stroke will suffer.
I forget to mention in an earlier posting that when doing the final glue up of back and belly laminations that you may have to flatten the crown a little in the area that bends into the tips. The crown of the bamboo being convex may split in this section along the fibre alignment. It will not affect the performance of the bow and at worst detract from the bows appearance.
Sorry about the long reply to a short question but one has to look at the overall picture.
Hoping this helps,
Daryl.
PS If you didn't notice in the previous photo the string groove is deeper over the shoulder than the edges to help the string lay better in the siyah.
The fadeouts in the picture are of the handle for my new bow.
After gluing the handle to the belly lamination I hand sand the fadeouts so that when the back lamination is glued there is a nice transition from handle to laminations. I also do this with the siyahs. The handle is 9" long, this measurement being determined by the overall length of the bow. The laminations are 50" in length. The siyahs will account for a loss of limb length of about 2" each. Out of the 50" we have lost 13" which leaves us 37" to spread over two working limbs. For these styles of bow you have to aim to achieve the maximum working limb length in the given overall length. In achieving this goal make sure that the handle or siyahs do not rob you of working limb length.
- Handle Glueup.jpg (88.32 KiB) Viewed 1600 times
- Handle.jpg (36.44 KiB) Viewed 1600 times
I forget to mention in an earlier posting that when doing the final glue up of back and belly laminations that you may have to flatten the crown a little in the area that bends into the tips. The crown of the bamboo being convex may split in this section along the fibre alignment. It will not affect the performance of the bow and at worst detract from the bows appearance.
Sorry about the long reply to a short question but one has to look at the overall picture.
Hoping this helps,
Daryl.
PS If you didn't notice in the previous photo the string groove is deeper over the shoulder than the edges to help the string lay better in the siyah.
Last edited by greybeard on Thu Nov 03, 2011 1:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Daryl,
Thanks for your continued replies and patience in explaining your techniques.
You say that you don't take into account mathsy bits, but the way you describe your taper shape it sound like you're right on track anyway.
This may be a bit of a pain, but if that last pic is one for a new bow, can we ask you to share photos of the rest of the process? Just for interest's sake?
cheers,
Dave
Thanks for your continued replies and patience in explaining your techniques.
You say that you don't take into account mathsy bits, but the way you describe your taper shape it sound like you're right on track anyway.
This may be a bit of a pain, but if that last pic is one for a new bow, can we ask you to share photos of the rest of the process? Just for interest's sake?
cheers,
Dave
https://www.instagram.com/armworks_australia/
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