Adam's bow

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CM Sackett · #61 Post by **CM Sackett** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 12:38 am

Mornin' Gil' (U.S. CST),

It's looking beautiful... proud for you (and the lad lucky enough to sight down it for life...).

As Always,

Sackett

gilnockie · #62 Post by **gilnockie** » Mon Feb 14, 2005 7:04 am

Welcome CM, its good to good to have you join us.

You seem to be an admirer of Arvid and his bows. Would you care to tell us how your Black Swan compares with your other bows.

gilnockie · #63 Post by **gilnockie** » Tue Feb 15, 2005 7:20 pm

Bad news guys, I have had a setback, but only a minor one.

The woven carbon laminate came out of the hotbox tonight and it was not glassy smooth on both sides. The laminate is textured. So I laid up another one and it is curing now. Hopefully by changing a few things it will be as smooth as a you know what.

By Thursday night it should be cooked and I will try again.

CM Sackett · #64 Post by **CM Sackett** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:32 am

Evenin' Gil,

Sorry to hear that the twill didn't 'behave'. You'll get it!

As for Black Swan's new Carbon Classics bows... I find them feather-light (almost "airey") in the hand, yet very smooth and "sweet" to draw and shoot.

Their slender lines are almost wispy, compared to anything else I've ever shared a longwalk with. But, as you have heard me say Gilnockie, after over 7,000 shafts sent... the bows are as smooth, responsive and sweet to shoot as they were the first draw.

Speed?

(Pete knows why I don't "post" speeds...). I can tell you they raise eyebrows on every skeptic... and big smiles on everyone who pulls through with them for themselves.

I realize this sounds like "hype". NOPE. Just what I find in these sweetstyks.

I have many other fine weapons, from several different craftsmen, that I hold just as dear... for their own merit. But I've never shot anything like these.

Would love to own one of your fine creations/evolutions, as well my friend. 'Twould be an honor.

As Always,

Sackett

gilnockie · #65 Post by **gilnockie** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 6:19 pm

Thanks for the words of encouragement CM.

I thought the bows which Arvid makes would be good, it is nice to have that thought confirmed. I am hanging out for the next issue of TBM so I can learn more about him.

I think I have it worked out how to lay up this stuff. The laminate came off the form tonight as smooth as a baby's b*m and gossamer thin.

It is cooking as I type and tomorrow I will glue it onto the belly of the stave.

This laminate used the last piece of the fabric I bought to test it and on the weekend I am going to purchase 1800mm (that is 6 feet for our American friends) and the next bow I make will have the twill on the back as well as the belly.

CM, next time you speak to Arvid, remind him that imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

He is up there alongside OL Adcock in my humble opinion.

CM Sackett · #66 Post by **CM Sackett** » Wed Feb 16, 2005 10:18 pm

Mornin' Gil (6:16CST America...),

Will do, my friend. Glad it's starting to come together on that layout!

Sackett

gilnockie · #67 Post by **gilnockie** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 12:07 am

Adam

This is just a note to let you know that I have not forgotten you or your bow.

I have been working on the woven carbon laminate. I have proved the idea on my own bow. A clear finish gives the laminate the appearance of depth.

I have glued the laminates to your bow. It will come off the form on Sunday and go into the hotbox for 24 hours.

Next week I will shape it, weigh it and tiller it.

gilnockie · #68 Post by **gilnockie** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:43 pm

Here are 2 pics of my bow with the belly laminate varnished but not rubbed back to a satin finish, and Adam's stave with the belly laminate in its raw state.

The clear finish makes it look "blacker" and while not apparent from the pic, it gives the laminate a feeling of depth.

Just for interest sake, yesterday I was shooting my bow at 60 metres.
It was a warm sunny day and the point of aim definitely shifted as the bow warmed up. When I first started shooting the point of aim was about 1.2 metres (48inches) below the mark. After about an hour, it had shifted to about 60 cm (24 inches) below the mark. This would indicate that as the bow warmed up the velocity of the arrow was reduced as I did not have to aim so low.

When the bow had "warmed up" I hit the target frame with an Easton 1916 alloy arrow fitted witha target point and it was driven into the wooden frame about an inch. But if the arrow was fitted with a broadhead, I guess it would be travelling fast enough to do a lot of damage if it hit flesh and bone.

I will test the bow at distances out to 20 metres and try to determine what the impact on the point of aim would be as the bow warms up.

It may not be significant for a hunting bow, but for a target bow I will have to use a white epoxy finish to protect the bow from heat.

erron · #69 Post by **erron** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 2:58 pm

Mmm, looking good Norman, just love that snakeskin effect!

Erron

gilnockie · #70 Post by **gilnockie** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:09 pm

Erron

What you see is nothing compared to the real thing. The next bow I will build will be a demonstrator for Eric.

It will be 66" and about 35# @ 28". I will put the woven fabric on the back as well as the belly. When I send it over to him, I will let you know and you can see it for yourself and play with it.

erron · #71 Post by **erron** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 3:13 pm

Oh yeah, okay

Erron

adam · #72 Post by **adam** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 6:52 pm

Can't wai tto get it mate.

Good things come to those who wait. Very nice

gilnockie · #73 Post by **gilnockie** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:29 pm

Adam

I'm afraid you will have to wait a little longer.

I shaped the bow tonight and it broke when I loaded it with 53# of weight to start the process of weighing it.

There is a sound like no other when you first weigh the bow, it is a gentle "craaack". When it happens, I step back and wait for the inevitable. This one failed in the middle of one limb, deep in the core.

This probably sounds a little spooky, but some bows are just not meant to be. They simply don't want to be released from the stave, I guess.

So, back to the old drawing board.

I laid up a strip of the twill fabric this evening and I have a pair of carbon lams I was going to use on another bow, but I will use them on yours. So I am part way to starting the next one. I won't bother posting any more pics until the next bow is shaped, weighed and tillered, and probably no posts either until that time.

Ah well, **** happens.

Hood · #74 Post by **Hood** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 7:57 pm

BUGGER
At least it happened before you gave it to Adam.

Can't wai tto get it mate.

Good things come to those who wait. Very nice

Never a truer word out of your mouth Adam.

Mick

#75 Post by **Stickbow Hunter** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 9:17 pm

Norman,

That is disappointing for you and Adam but these things do happen. There wouldn't be a bow maker out there who doesn't have some failures. Hope all goes well with the next one.

Jeff

CM Sackett · #76 Post by **CM Sackett** » Wed Feb 23, 2005 10:01 pm

Mornin' Gil,

Don't remember reading what your core was, but "ActionWood" (as we Yanks call it) is very consistent, dense, CURED and superb under load.

You WILL conquer, and what a bow it will be!

As Always,

Sackett

erron · #77 Post by **erron** » Thu Feb 24, 2005 7:15 am

That's disappointing news, Norman, but good to see you already back in the saddle

Erron

gilnockie · #78 Post by **gilnockie** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:22 pm

OK, this is the start of Adam's bow, Mk 2.

This bow will be different in two respects from the first attempt: it will have a layer of "action Boo" in place of the veneers under the belly and back laminates and both the back and the belly will be faced with the woven carbon fabric.

Here are two pics of the raw material:

gilnockie · #79 Post by **gilnockie** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:25 pm

Here are 2 pics of the back of Adam's bow against the sheet of bamboo flooring.

gilnockie · #80 Post by **gilnockie** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:29 pm

Here are 2 pics of the back of Adam's bow. One shows the reflex, when aligned with a straight piece of timber. The other shows the carbon against the flooring as a backdrop.

#81 Post by **Stickbow Hunter** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 12:46 pm

Norman,

Thanks for the update. I like the look of that Bamboo flooring. I might have to try and get some and try some lams from it.

In my personal opinion, I think you are going down the right track using the Bamboo in place of the veneers. I think you will notice improvment in the feel of the bow and if you had a chrono you may even notice a slight performance increase.

Jeff

archangel · #82 Post by **archangel** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 1:34 pm

Norman,

Great to see this exciting development! You know my passion/fixation with this material - vertical flooring certainly is exceptional stuff. I am looking forward to following the progress of this new bow. Incidentally, what sort of lam thickness were you able to get with your bandsaw?

gilnockie · #83 Post by **gilnockie** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 6:29 pm

Archangel

I have been accepted as a member of a woodworking co-op and they have a good range of woodworking equipment. I simply cut the flooring into strips and then sliced each one in half standing it on its edge. Then I put each one through the thicknesser and reduced them to about 2.8mm. The thicknesser is adjustable in increments of 0.1mm so with the next bow I make I will attempt to mill the lams to within 0.1mm of the required thickness.

Jeff

I never really had any doubts about the advantages of bamboo over veneers, once I learned about it. The problem with the bamboo timber I was using is that you must get matching pairs so the nodes can be offset. There are also problems with borers and splits in the palings. The bamboo flooring on the other hand is a manufactured product and the nodes are randomly distributed across the board and you do not need matched pairs. I also reasoned that the the quality control in the factory would mean that borers and splits would not be an issue. The only reason I have not used it the action boo up till now is that I did not have access to the machinery which would enable me to mill the boo boards.

The veneers enable me to make a bow using only hand tools and hand held power tools. The co-op does not have a drum sander so I cannot grind tapered lams. But I will continue to use the veneers because they allow me to make up a tapered core with precisely the correct gradient.

adam · #84 Post by **adam** » Thu Mar 03, 2005 6:42 pm

Getting itchy

Buford · #85 Post by **Buford** » Fri Mar 04, 2005 11:35 am

adam wrote:Getting itchy

i got a special cream for that.

gilnockie · #86 Post by **gilnockie** » Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:36 pm

If anyone is waondering why there has been no activity on the thread, it is because I am not satisfied with the finish of the carbon lams.

The finish is not an issue when they are faced with veneer, but the appearance of the raw carbon is not what I would want to put my name on.

I am working on it.

gilnockie · #87 Post by **gilnockie** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:49 pm

I was in Melbourne for a few days and caught up with Erich Schneider. He has a double carbon longbow I built before I started Adam's bow. This is the second bow of this type and Erich is field testing it for me. Here are some comments he sent me in an email last week.

However, the bow you have sent me is a screamer. I was finally able to use the chrono on the clubgrounds.It was'nt working when I wanted to test it the first time. Somebody must have missed and shot a whole into the plastic part of it (obviously a great shot), but last saturday it was working . I put a few 55/75 goldtip carbons and some of my 2018's both at 29 1/2 inches with 125 gn tips. I believe you will like the results. 55/75 at a 28" draw came at 207 209 and 208 ft/sec. respectively. 2018 eastons came through with 178 183 185 ft/sec respectively. That is unbelievable!

Here is a pic of Eric drawing the bow.

gilnockie · #88 Post by **gilnockie** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:54 pm

Here are some pics of the bow. I tried to take some photos of the flaws in the finish but they were difficult to pick up against the black of the carbon.

Lou · #89 Post by **Lou** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:55 pm

Good stuff Norman,
What is the weight of the 2018 that Erich shot and what is the bow poundage?
Lou

Lou · #90 Post by **Lou** » Tue Mar 15, 2005 10:59 pm

I posted my previous post after the pic showing Erich and did not see the bow poundage in the next lot, so ignore this part of the question.

The bow loks very nice, congratulations!!

Lou

Ozbow

Adam's bow

bamboo laminations