I need help guys and girls. I've only just got into trad archery so I'm learning as i go. I've got a 65# longbow and I'm shooting brand new Vic ash shafts that i have made to be the best equality possible. The shafts are 65-70# and have a 8% FOC.
Here is the problem they nose dive, not a little bit i mean they get their bums in the air and plummet. I have spoken to a couple on guys and they have told me that it may be my nocking point. So i therefore have tried every nocking point under the sun, up and down to about 1/2 ".
Could this be a Clarence problem?
Has this happened to anyone else?
Nose diving arrows
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Stickbow Hunter
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RoAr,
Could you please give us more info? What distance are they nose diving at? Does the rear of your arrows kick up at the back on release or do the arrows just drop quickly over distance?
Your FOC is fine and you could even have more.
I imagine that your arrows would be into the 600+ grain mark so they are heavy, near 10 grains per pound of bow weight. If you aren't used to shooting these heavier shafts it may seem like they are nose diving.
I shoot arras that are around 12 grains per pound of bow weight and even more sometimes. I have been shooting these for many years and have just gotten used to the extra weight. Besides when I am hunting my distances are usually under 20 metres.
Jeff
Could you please give us more info? What distance are they nose diving at? Does the rear of your arrows kick up at the back on release or do the arrows just drop quickly over distance?
Your FOC is fine and you could even have more.
I imagine that your arrows would be into the 600+ grain mark so they are heavy, near 10 grains per pound of bow weight. If you aren't used to shooting these heavier shafts it may seem like they are nose diving.
I shoot arras that are around 12 grains per pound of bow weight and even more sometimes. I have been shooting these for many years and have just gotten used to the extra weight. Besides when I am hunting my distances are usually under 20 metres.
Jeff
yep - i would think the first thing to check is nocking point like others have said.
that link poppy posted is an excellent source of tuning info IMO - i highly recomend you check it out.
one other thing you should check is your nock fit - as in how tight your nocks are.
tight nocks can give you very poor arrow flight, even when all other factors are perfect. they should be tight enough to hold the arrow on the string when the bow/arrow is pointed down, but should fall off with a light tap on the string.
that link poppy posted is an excellent source of tuning info IMO - i highly recomend you check it out.
one other thing you should check is your nock fit - as in how tight your nocks are.
tight nocks can give you very poor arrow flight, even when all other factors are perfect. they should be tight enough to hold the arrow on the string when the bow/arrow is pointed down, but should fall off with a light tap on the string.
Poppy,
Thanks for the website mate I'lll give it a go
Stickbow Hunter,
The back of the arrow is kicking up high. They seem to be doing this almost as soon as they leave the bow. At 20 meters you can see that it is really not good as they come no where near being able to recover
bsrecurve,
If the nock is a bit to tight what can be done? Could i sand paper the inside of the nock?
Thanks for the website mate I'lll give it a go
Stickbow Hunter,
The back of the arrow is kicking up high. They seem to be doing this almost as soon as they leave the bow. At 20 meters you can see that it is really not good as they come no where near being able to recover
bsrecurve,
If the nock is a bit to tight what can be done? Could i sand paper the inside of the nock?
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Stickbow Hunter
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RoAr,
From what you describe it seems to be a problem with the nocking point or even the nocks being too tight as has been suggested. I don't believe in using clip on nocks with Trad bows as they tend to grip the sting too tight.
I don't like filing the nocks but you could do this a little if they are real tight. Another method is to place the nocks in boiling water and open the string groove up a little.
Another problem could be the way you are holding your bow or your release. Are you shooting mediterranean release (one finger above and two below the arra) or three fingers under? This can effect arra flight also.
Have you been shooting this bow with other arras without problems? Is the bow tillered properly?
Oh, you are using feathers and not vanes? Vanes will not shoot well off the shelf of a longbow and they don't allow the arra to recover anywhere near as quick as with feather fletches.
There are a number of things to check and try so all the best with it and let us know how you go.
Jeff
From what you describe it seems to be a problem with the nocking point or even the nocks being too tight as has been suggested. I don't believe in using clip on nocks with Trad bows as they tend to grip the sting too tight.
I don't like filing the nocks but you could do this a little if they are real tight. Another method is to place the nocks in boiling water and open the string groove up a little.
Another problem could be the way you are holding your bow or your release. Are you shooting mediterranean release (one finger above and two below the arra) or three fingers under? This can effect arra flight also.
Have you been shooting this bow with other arras without problems? Is the bow tillered properly?
Oh, you are using feathers and not vanes? Vanes will not shoot well off the shelf of a longbow and they don't allow the arra to recover anywhere near as quick as with feather fletches.
There are a number of things to check and try so all the best with it and let us know how you go.
Jeff
Stickbow Hunter,
The bow itself should be fine as its an early martin longbow. It has to be over 20 years old, will that matter? Its had a fair bit of shooting time from its last owner.
I'm not using vanes. I have 5" feathers and had tried both Mediterranean and three fingers under. but no luck.
I'm going to give every thing you have suggested a try in the next couple of days.
The bow itself should be fine as its an early martin longbow. It has to be over 20 years old, will that matter? Its had a fair bit of shooting time from its last owner.
I'm not using vanes. I have 5" feathers and had tried both Mediterranean and three fingers under. but no luck.
I'm going to give every thing you have suggested a try in the next couple of days.
arrow flight
hey mate, another thing to check is the brace height of your bow if it is too low your arrow flight can be poor.what weight points have you on your shafts? try heavier ones on a couple of shafts to compare with the others. allso try nocking an arrow above the nock this may seem too high but some bows shoot that high. i shoot of the shelf ,my nocking point is about 1/4 inch above centre.hope this helps seeya GAZ.
arrow flight
another thing mate, 8% forward of centre, not enough! 20% is what you need.
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Stickbow Hunter
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Gaz,
It is not my intention to try and cause an argument but I do not agree with your advice of using a FOC of 20%. This is way too high IMO and will cause an arrow to nose dive - it will not have a flat trajectory.
The ideal balance point for an arrow is from 7 per cent to 9 per cent ahead of the exact middle including the head and nock.
For hunting arrows a little higher can be used as shooting distances are reduced.
I believe with carbon arrows people are having success with higher FOC percentages but it does not work the same for wood arrows.
Jeff
It is not my intention to try and cause an argument but I do not agree with your advice of using a FOC of 20%. This is way too high IMO and will cause an arrow to nose dive - it will not have a flat trajectory.
The ideal balance point for an arrow is from 7 per cent to 9 per cent ahead of the exact middle including the head and nock.
For hunting arrows a little higher can be used as shooting distances are reduced.
I believe with carbon arrows people are having success with higher FOC percentages but it does not work the same for wood arrows.
Jeff
My arrow set up and experiences
G'day RoAR
I use wood arrows that weight between 450-500 grns with a FOC of about 9%. I use 5" shield cut feathers. The nocks are either horn self nocks or plastic bohning nocks and are fitted to string so that they are snug on the string but will fall off the string with a light tap on the string from my index finger.
I use a mediterranean release based on a byron ferguson's become the arrow shooting technique.
Assuming that the nock point is in the correct position on the string, my experience is that you can lose a significant amount of arrow speed if the nock grips the string too tightly. This was quite evident recently when I had to replace some arrows for my Red Wing. The nock was too tight as I had forgotten to sand it down to fit correctly. I noticed that the arrow was consistently hitting too low on the target when compared to the other arrows where the nocks fitted correctly.
Also, even if the nock applies the correct pressure on the string, if your technique is such that your fingers pinch the nock too tightly when you draw that can have a significant impact on the arrow speed and flight characteristics. Seen that happen when I've shot some of the self nock arrows from my Mongolian bow.
There's a number of people who, IMHO, have given some very good advice. Thought I'd just add my 2cents worth based on what I have observed when I've been on the range.
So far I am getting good flight out of the arrows and they are handling targets 50m away nicely. They don't fly perfectly flat but its close enough given the relatively low poundage of my bows.
Happy shooting and hope it gets sorted out
I use wood arrows that weight between 450-500 grns with a FOC of about 9%. I use 5" shield cut feathers. The nocks are either horn self nocks or plastic bohning nocks and are fitted to string so that they are snug on the string but will fall off the string with a light tap on the string from my index finger.
I use a mediterranean release based on a byron ferguson's become the arrow shooting technique.
Assuming that the nock point is in the correct position on the string, my experience is that you can lose a significant amount of arrow speed if the nock grips the string too tightly. This was quite evident recently when I had to replace some arrows for my Red Wing. The nock was too tight as I had forgotten to sand it down to fit correctly. I noticed that the arrow was consistently hitting too low on the target when compared to the other arrows where the nocks fitted correctly.
Also, even if the nock applies the correct pressure on the string, if your technique is such that your fingers pinch the nock too tightly when you draw that can have a significant impact on the arrow speed and flight characteristics. Seen that happen when I've shot some of the self nock arrows from my Mongolian bow.
There's a number of people who, IMHO, have given some very good advice. Thought I'd just add my 2cents worth based on what I have observed when I've been on the range.
So far I am getting good flight out of the arrows and they are handling targets 50m away nicely. They don't fly perfectly flat but its close enough given the relatively low poundage of my bows.
Happy shooting and hope it gets sorted out
Roar, do you shoot 3 fingers under?
I used to and on a 58" amo recurve the arrows did exactly what you described until i changed to 1 finger over.There was more strain on the bottom limb because of it.They came out fine from the longbow but not the short recurve.
I thought the bow had a weakness in one of the limbs because i tried moving the nocking point around and it made no difference.
Took me about 2 weeks to work it out.
Im sure plenty of people have success with 3 fingers under but since i changed i will never go back to it.
Try holding the string with 2 fingers, 1 above and 1 below the arrow nock and shoot the bow a few times.Trying to have even pressure on both fingers
If It works ok then i would change to split finger(1 above,2 below) if i were you(thats if you shoot 3 under of course)hope this helps.
Also check the top limb for any damage in the laminations.
Hopefully thats not the problem though
Jeff
I used to and on a 58" amo recurve the arrows did exactly what you described until i changed to 1 finger over.There was more strain on the bottom limb because of it.They came out fine from the longbow but not the short recurve.
I thought the bow had a weakness in one of the limbs because i tried moving the nocking point around and it made no difference.
Took me about 2 weeks to work it out.
Im sure plenty of people have success with 3 fingers under but since i changed i will never go back to it.
Try holding the string with 2 fingers, 1 above and 1 below the arrow nock and shoot the bow a few times.Trying to have even pressure on both fingers
If It works ok then i would change to split finger(1 above,2 below) if i were you(thats if you shoot 3 under of course)hope this helps.
Also check the top limb for any damage in the laminations.
Hopefully thats not the problem though
Jeff
Thanks everyone for your help. 
gaz
I did what you suggested and made my nocking point quite high (1/4") and nothing happened i got the same problem. so i nocked above the nock Bingo. arrows are flying noticeably straighter.
As far as the FOC is concerned i don't really have a choice due to the fact that i have glued in all my heads with 24 epoxy, i am shooting 125 grain view points.
MaylandL
I have boiled the nock and separated the nock so that they don't grip the string. This appears to have helped the problem a fair bit.
Jeffro
I haven't tried shooting with two fingers. I have always shot with two fingers bellow and one above. I'll give it a go and see how i go and at the same time i will check the limbs for damage.
By having a high nocking point along with the boiling a seperating the nocks so that they don't grip the string i have solved alot of the problem.
gaz
I did what you suggested and made my nocking point quite high (1/4") and nothing happened i got the same problem. so i nocked above the nock Bingo. arrows are flying noticeably straighter.
As far as the FOC is concerned i don't really have a choice due to the fact that i have glued in all my heads with 24 epoxy, i am shooting 125 grain view points.
MaylandL
I have boiled the nock and separated the nock so that they don't grip the string. This appears to have helped the problem a fair bit.
Jeffro
I haven't tried shooting with two fingers. I have always shot with two fingers bellow and one above. I'll give it a go and see how i go and at the same time i will check the limbs for damage.
By having a high nocking point along with the boiling a seperating the nocks so that they don't grip the string i have solved alot of the problem.
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Stickbow Hunter
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This is not a problem for getting the points off. Just place the points over some heat source like a gas stove and heat them a little and that will soften the epoxy and they will come off no problems at all. Just be careful not to let the flame burn your shaft.i don't really have a choice due to the fact that i have glued in all my heads with 24 epoxy, i am shooting 125 grain view points.
Glad to hear you seem to have sorted things out.
Jeff
SUCCESS!
I've got my arrows flying like darts! they are a bloody beautiful sight. so here is how I did it, with all of your help.
1. Opened up the nocks to the point that they only just grip the string. This reduced the wobble in the arrows, but still nose dived.
2. Moved nocking point way up. Had the nocking point at 1/4" high and that did work so i nock above the nock to get a bit more height. this took out the majority of the nose diving problem.
3. There was a little bit of wobble action going on so i got a pit of old arrow and faded the leather into the shelf so the there was less chance of the feathers catching on the way through. this worked only to give me peace of mind.
4. Mucked around with brace height. Took a bit off and the arrows flew worse so i added a bit and "Roberts your mothers brother" I got straight shooting arrows.
Thanks to everyone who offered their advice, i really appreciate the wisdom.
Now I just have to get better at shooting the thing
.
I've got my arrows flying like darts! they are a bloody beautiful sight. so here is how I did it, with all of your help.
1. Opened up the nocks to the point that they only just grip the string. This reduced the wobble in the arrows, but still nose dived.
2. Moved nocking point way up. Had the nocking point at 1/4" high and that did work so i nock above the nock to get a bit more height. this took out the majority of the nose diving problem.
3. There was a little bit of wobble action going on so i got a pit of old arrow and faded the leather into the shelf so the there was less chance of the feathers catching on the way through. this worked only to give me peace of mind.
4. Mucked around with brace height. Took a bit off and the arrows flew worse so i added a bit and "Roberts your mothers brother" I got straight shooting arrows.
Thanks to everyone who offered their advice, i really appreciate the wisdom.
Now I just have to get better at shooting the thing
.
nice work.
You can fine tune the nock point by shooting unfletched shafts and compare the strike point to fletched shafts. Once the two types of shaft are hitting in the same zone vertically, you are one the money with the nock point. Having the shaft fly straight is going a long way towards being right.
You can fine tune the nock point by shooting unfletched shafts and compare the strike point to fletched shafts. Once the two types of shaft are hitting in the same zone vertically, you are one the money with the nock point. Having the shaft fly straight is going a long way towards being right.