Bows & arrows aren't toys!!!

[Stickbow Hunter]

Rather than highjack yeoman’s recent thread I thought I would start another.

It is not my intention to have a go at Dave or anyone else but I wish to give my views on this matter and see what others think.

In recent times I have read a number of posts on this site regarding people in the reinactment groups shooting at each other with bows and arrows. Now we read that kids are going to be shooting at people.

Yeoman said:

I'll even be running a kids shooting range, where the target is a few 'knights' dressed up in the appropriate kit running around trying not to be hit.

I just don’t agree with this kind of thing!

When I was young I was always taught NEVER to point a gun at anyone. This was drummed into me and any other kids I knew from a very early age. When I got a bow and arrow I was told the same thing about them. When I had kids of my own I taught them the same. I taught my kids that a bow and arrow was not a toy and that they should never even point a bow and arrow in the direction of anyone; let alone actually shooting an arrow in the direction of, or at, anyone.

Now I know the people in these events wear protective gear and blunts are used on the arrows etc etc but accidents can, and do happen. A blunt can do a lot of damage even from light poundage bows.

The danger, I believe, is that these kinds of activities could lead to some kids trying it out on their mates who won’t be wearing the special protection and a serious injury could occur.

Simply put, a bow and arrow is NOT a toy and IMO an arrow should never be shot at another person - period. I believe events such as those mentioned above portray them as toys and only encourage kids to try the same thing out at home.

I know that some of you may not agree with what I have just said but I thought I would raise the point that not all people agree with such events.

Jeff

[pat]

I agee Jef, if the dogooders found out we were doin this sort of thing,
it would give the sport we all love such a bad rap

[little arrows]

Jeff, I couldn't agree more. At the Abbey Festival at Caboolture recently a kid was injured whilst "playing" with the bow. It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye. I personally think they're crazy. Can you imagine the damage I could do with my bow and I only shoot 35#. I guess we don't know the full story, but the concept is wrong.
sue

[Mick Smith]

Jeff

At the risk of sounding like a "wet blanket", I too believe this activity could lead to tragic consequences if some children came to accept this as acceptable behavior in the back yard at home. I certainly would not allow my children to shoot at real people under any circumstances.

In the past I have often been "bemused" by the activities of some re-enactors shooting lightweight bows/arrows at other re-enactors. In one way I think it's great to see the traditions of old, being upheld as far as practicable, but it could set a bad example for any children spectators, IMO. Adults can weigh up the consequences of their actions, but children just don't have this facility.

I'm led to believe that it's actually illegal to shoot an arrow at a target that has a human form. It somehow seems incongruous to me that this doesn't apply to the "real thing" as well. Having said that, I really hate to see anything officially banned or curtailed. It may be best if the participating re-enactors themselves introduced measures to minimise any possible danger.

It's a difficult question with an equally difficult answer.

Mick

[trash boss]

I, as well, agree with Jeff. When our kids were learning to shoot we drummed it into them that a bow and arrow are a weapon and that under no circumstances are they to point them at another person and also to make sure that when they are shooting that anybody that is with them is standing behind them.
I really cant understand how or why anybody would want to purposely stand in front of an archer and let them shoot at you.

Jo

[greybeard]

Jeff,
I am in total agreement with your thoughts. There are enough bad influences (such as explicet violent computer games etc) disregard for your fellow man on TV movies etc and we certainly do not need to expose children to the dangers of shooting arrows at each other. Any sort of injury resulting from this type of event has the potential to do enormous damage to our sport as well as destroying a young persons life and future.

Daryl.

[MaylandL]

While I totally agree with the points raised regarding treating bows and arrows as weapons and hence worthy of respect. I also believe that as adults we supervise the activity of children on the range and highlight the need for safe shooting.

Being a former reenactor I am fully aware of the safety precautions that responsible reenactors have in place for combat archery. There is a myriad of safety gear that they put on be they in some group like Grey Company or Society of Creative Anachronism. Participants need to be 18 or older to participate. Having said all that I agree that there is always a risk but you can minimise the risk to a level that participants deem acceptable.

combat archery link posted by Mubbubban
http://www.ozbow.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.p ... ght=combat

I do not see any difference of combat archery to paintball/skirmish games. Having done both I can say that getting hit with a paintball hurts a heck lot more.

Now to the questions of kids doing this. I would like to ask the question as to the age that we are talking about. If the issue is that children will start shooting blunts at each other by copying the what is done on field (whether through mischief or ignorance), then I would argue that no children should be accessing and using archery kit unsupervised.

If the question is if we are setting a bad example, possibly but I think it is our responsibility as adults and parents to let children know the circumstances of the event and the protective gear that they use. Also we need to educate as to the dangers of copying what is done on the field.

Alternatively, if the issue is whether children should be shooting at armoured live targets, depends on the age of the child and their understanding of the consequences. IMHO, I would not be promoting the archery shoot where people under the age of 18 are doing combat archery, irrespective of whether it supervised.


Happy shooting all

[stace]

Jeff
FULLY AGREE with your statement ,
When I first read the article a few months ago a shiver went up my spine when I thought of the effect this could have on all of US (ARCHERS)

The simple fact that people actually shoot arrows at one another ,whether it be in armour /use light weight bows etc is still leading by example

I know that common sense must prevail ,HOWEVER court action and finger pointing may result from an accidental injury to the detriment of us all
The above is my opinion BUT I as well was taught from an early age YOU NEVER POINT /SHOOT a weapon at one another
Hopefully the organisers give an in depth desciption/requirments of the event and show the before armour and the after bruising as a result
stace

[emu]

I agree with Jeff as my kids know how to use a firearm safely they also know not to point the bow at anything other than the target and to never shoot if anyone is infront or to the side all people have to be behind the firearm or bow before u shoot.I realise that protective equipment is worn but I sure as hell wouldn't let my kids do it, it only takes one unlucky shot to take out an eye and to late then after all we wouldn't let them run in front of firearms.If u are over 18 well thats ur choice to take part I have no problem with people keeping old traditions or history going as I think some it should be taught in schools not some of the crap they teach now.All to their own I suppose I have witnessed some medievil stuff and reckon it is good to see.Just my thoughts
Cheers Emu

[Stickbow Hunter]

Thanks for the input so far.

Mayland said:

I do not see any difference of combat archery to paintball/skirmish games.

Nor do I and I think the same about paintball/skirmish games as I do about shooting arrows at another person.

Now to the questions of kids doing this. I would like to ask the question as to the age that we are talking about. If the issue is that children will start shooting blunts at each other by copying the what is done on field (whether through mischief or ignorance), then I would argue that no children should be accessing and using archery kit unsupervised.

Mayland,

What about kids (early school age even into teens) from non archery related families or even those with archery experience who might get to see this stuff. A little imagination could see these kids with a crudely made bow from a tree branch and an arrow made from a Stinking Rodger or similar – this combination could do a lot of damage if used incorrectly. Such things can easily be done out of the site of dad and mum.

The first bow I made my son (4 yrs old) was about 12# at his little draw and I can tell you that it would have been capable of causing very serious injury.

Just a couple of examples out of any number; I wouldn’t expect kids to been shown people using golf clubs to hit golf balls at each other or a cricket bat being purposely used to hit a cricket ball at someone else. In the same way I don’t expect kids to be shown how to shoot arrows at each other - it gives me the creeps!

As has been said, adults can do what they like – within the law of course – so they can decide for themselves it they want to shoot arrows at each other. However, if I was organizing any event there would be NO shooting of arrows at anyone regardless of any safety precautions taken.

Jeff

[bleeroyb]

As a child I was taught the same...never point ANY projectile weapon (apart from my super soaker) at a person, even if it is unloaded (having a .22 around it was more than necessary). It may seem like a bit of fun having kids pointing a bow at some tool running around in 'armour', but geez people...that is a terrible example to show your kids. My father would definitely not have let me even go to that club...and when I have kids there is no way I would let them do the same.

As an adult you are fully aware of the dangers that a bow and arrow pose, but as a child...you just think "Hey thats fun, why don't we go out to the back paddock and take the unpopular kid and shoot arrows at him". When someone gets their windpipe crushed or an eye taken out suddenly it gets serious, the kid is taken to hospital and its all over the media band.

C'mon people, a bit more responsibility please!

Cheers all,

Leeroy

[trash one]

I totally agree with Jeff.
Our son has been shooting since he was two and hunting since he was eight, he is now 22. One day, quite a few years ago, we took a friend and his son out for a practice shot and the friends son was pretty irresponible with his attitude towards bows and arrows and wouldn't listen to what he was being told about shooting safely, quite quickly and in no uncertain words our boy told the other to listen to what he was being told as these bows are not toys and can easily hurt or do lots of damage to people.


CATCH YA
BUTCH

[ed]

I don't agree.

These events from what I have seen are well controlled and safety is well looked after. All armour is checked to be sure that an arrow can not penetrate to vital areas. All arrows are also checked for safety. The blunts are large enough that if they hit you in the thigh, arm or torso, you are going to get bruised at best given the restriction on draw weights.

Kids work out the difference between a cap gun and a real gun mighty quick with any supervision. These are supervised events. Parents have the choice to let their kids participate or not and they can judge their kids for their level of insight and responsibility.

I think some of you guys are alarmist wet blankets in deed. So scared of criticism you are trying to hide in a burrow. These events have been running in Australia for over 20 years and you have not heard about them till now - that says something doesn't it. Loads of kids have taken part in these games and I for one have not heard of kids going home and shooting each other with bows and arrows afterwards. Get some perspective not based on knee jerk reactions.

[trash one]

ED
There is nothing knee jerk about the reaction, it come from the way I was raised, the horse always kick, the gun is always loaded weapons are not toys and dress up is for kids .

CATCH YA
BUTCH

[ed]

go to the events and see for yourselves. The marshalls they have are some of the most anally safety conscious people you will meet.

I think judging the events without intimate knowledge of them does qualify as knee jerk.

I was also brought up around guns and animals, and at first I thought there would be some serious bravado to take part in these combat archery events. To my surprise most of the people taking part in them are wimpy computer geeks and gamers. The understand and apply rules with a passion beyond mere safety considerations.
After seeing the events I have not taken part, not generation X enough of a sport for me

[stace]

ED's Quote

Kids work out the difference between a cap gun and a real gun mighty quick with any supervision.These are supervised events

They can yes BUT as a parent I know you cant supervise your children 100% of the time .And what happens when the event is over even TOY bows and arrows can take out an eye
These days a lot of children have trouble telling the difference between computer games and real life issues

I think some of you guys are alarmist wet blankets in deed

.
Maybe but I can see where this can lead us as archers
There has to some regulation and self regulation is better than strict laws administered by others outside of the sport
Been a gun shooter for as long as a bowhunter and I KNOW the restrictions we as gun owners now face,we now find it hard to get just TWO brands of Black Powder for MUZZLE LOADERS due to government restrictions ,thats just ONE restriction of many pages full .
Should we be made have a safe for our bows now with arrows locked away separately so accidents cant happen

These events have been running in Australia for over 20 years and you have not heard about them till now - that says something doesn't it. Loads of kids have taken part in these games and I for one have not heard of kids going home and shooting each other with bows and arrows afterwards. Get some perspective not based on knee jerk reactions.

Yes and thanks to the Internet it has bought it out into a very public view
Now that I know it exists I will try harder to educate young archers of the dangers .I grew up on a small property 20 miles out of town ,I had to learn my chosen pursuits through every scrap of written material I could get my hands on. Not like todays Internet which almost every house has and gives the public a wealth of information,so hopefully they will read the FULL thread and not only a section
All I can hope is that the people in charge of the event SHOW how much is required in Armour ,demonstrate the small poundage bows which are used and stress to the spectators the consciences
We can all disagree with each others opinions ,I can see where your coming from ,But see what others OUTSIDE of the sport will see
Probably havent expressed what I really want to say but here it is anyway
stace

[Mububban]

In Grey Company, we make it very clear to our kids that swords and bows and arrows are not toys, and they're only for adults to play with. Lots of parents have wooden swords and 15lb bows for their kids, but only for use when supervised. Of course kids will hit each other with sticks after watching Star Wars as soon as mum and dad aren't looking (I know I did!) but at our archery days or training days, kids only do target archery under close adult supervision, and they never play with steel swords. Mind you the foam pirate cutlasses toy shops have been selling lately have been very popular But again, we make it very clear that there are kid-approved toys, and adult weapons, and never the twain shall mix.

I love combat archery and paintball and lasertag etc, but personally, I would never want a kid shooting blunts from a kiddies bow, even at a fully armoured adult, because to me it sends a mixed message. And I remember as a kid I didn't need encouragement or mixed signals to get up to mischief We let the grownups shoot each other, but if any kids turns sideways or backwards with a loaded bow on my range, prepare to go crying to mummy.

That said, I know from experience that an adult wearing even the minimum armour of head/face, groin and throat protection, from a kid's 10-25lb bow, using blunt arrows, holds almost zero chance of an injury. But I personally would still never let kids shoot at me. Just in case some kid goes home and thinks it'll be fun to grab their bow and the nearest arrow with possibly a field point on it instead, and shoot their sibling, or the dog.

I taught archery to 7-16 year olds at an American summer camp for 2 months, and I made it very clear to them that even though they're not as powerful as the rifles they also got to use at camp, these lightweight bows can still hurt or kill, and anyone fooling around would get kicked off the range and/or hauled in front of the camp boss. I had one 8 year old girl load a bow and laughingly turn and point it at her friend. I ended up making the poor thing burst into tears, but it got my point across.

Hopefully if I have kids, I'll be able to share my love of archery with them. But as with many activities, some things can only be done with an adult supervising, and archery will definitely be one of them. And never in my backyard because I live in suburbia and don't want to accidentally peg a neighbour with a stray shot!

Being a safety orientated person (come on, I drive a Volvo!) and coming from a group that does lots of public shows thus needs to pay for public liability insurance, I wonder how on earth you could explain to your insurance company that sometimes your archery display (which we never run due to space constraints at public shows) sometimes involves kids shooting at adults! Do the parents of the kids shooting need to sign a waiver? That in all likelihood wouldn't be worth the paper it's written on from what I've heard.....

[Mububban]

....at first I thought there would be some serious bravado to take part in these combat archery events. To my surprise most of the people taking part in them are wimpy computer geeks and gamers.

Hey, I resemble that remark!
Of course, you could always kit up and get shot a few times and see how wimpy you need to be

They understand and apply rules with a passion beyond mere safety considerations.

That part is true. And it's because we have to be that way. We are VERY conscious of safety and public liability etc for everything we do. Training, public shows, combat archery etc.
Whenever you do something a little strange that involves something that can be classed as a weapon, even though re-enactment is a worldwide movement, you have to be really paranoid about anyone and everything taking things the wrong way.

We even tell our members that if someone breaks into your house, DO NOT HIT THEM WITH A SWORD!!!! Which would be the natural thing for us to reach for. But we know that if we did, the news headline would be "Home owner kills invader with sword." And we'd all be labelled as nutters when only some of us are and we'd have to keep our swords in gun safes. We go to great pains to classify our swords as "blunt theatrical props" and tell our members to onyl carry them in your car on on you, covered up, wrapped in a towel, in a big bag or a golf caddy etc, ONLY when on the way to a show or training.

it's that same sort of "frightened of beaurocrats" attitude that means we will never allow under 18's to shoot at us, or learn our sword fighting. We allow kiddies to do target archery no worries, but I or another experienced archer is always running the range, and they're never allowed to shoot unsupervised.
Some groups though do allow 16 year olds to learn combat, as long as (I believe) that one or both parents are a member of that group, and they both give their written permission.

[The Gnome!]

Good points put forward on both sides.

I was raised to respect all forms of weaponry & to be weary of all animals big & small & have tought my kids the same thing.
Teach them the right way & if they don't listen give them a good serving & if they still don't listen reject them.

Yours in Archery.

Gnome!

[stace]

Mububban
I like your style ,nice to see there is some sensible people in charge of your events
You sound as if your a responsible RANGE OFFICER
It still worries me but having you explain matters makes me understand it better
And the fact YOUR EVENTS (archery duels)are not viewed by the general public relieves some worries ,there is still all the others but I would hope that they are as conscientious as yourself
thanks
stace

[Bandit]

i have a friend who is in a reenactment club, and they have done a few combat shoots, i personally know that all combat shoots (in this club at least) are very well thought out and planned, all the Armour is tested and all shooters are competent... I'm not sure about their policy on children, but i guess that if the kids are of appropriate age (old enough to know that some things are ok in a controlled situation) and are supervised its not too much of a problem in my opinion.

[bleeroyb]

Sorry to be a wet blanket, but I'm going to be a wet blanket anyway!

Look, I don't have a problem with events organised by groups like the Grey Company, no probs at all. They are all adults, know full well their own mortality and take responsibility for what they do. However, doing the same with children (I believe) isn't right. I pretty much agree with Bandit on this one (welcome to the forum Bandit!), and I'm not the typical retiree wet blanket I'm only 24 (sorry all you retiree wet blankets out there).

IMHO, if you're over a certain age (lets say 16) I have no probs whatsoever, but prior to that age I just can't see myself agreeing.

Anyhow, cheers all,

Leeroy

[Iceman]

Hi Jeff
I agree totally with what You say.A few years ago I went to a coaching coarse and passed my Level one coaching certificate.We went in great depth about safety with a bow and arrow.Pointing a weapon which is what a bow is goes against all common sense we are taught.It will only be a matter of time before someone is injured or god forbid killed copying or re inacting this.I do not know about Australia but here in New Zealand there is a group of people who would like guns or bows for hunting banned and something like that would help them do this.We also have a body called Osh and they would really get into any person who caused an injury with at least a very heavy fine.
Ray

[Lou]

Sorry I’m a little late on this thread so I might repeat something already said but I’ll say it anyway.

In a war situation soldiers had problems shooting at the enemy when trained shooting at round targets. When trained shooting at human shaped targets this problem was largely overcome. I often see at target ranges kids shooting at human face targets. I think this can be similar sort of training like training the soldiers shooting at human shape targets. Kids shooting at each other with blunts could be even a more dangerous education.

Lou

[Anysia]

I have been to more than a few, less than many, SCA combat archery, or just Archery shoots. The "Hit the Knight" is carefully done, armor tested, low poundage of bows, and under strict supervision. It is a far cry from arbitrarily aiming at someone during a field or woods shoot.

[GrahameA]

Good Morning Everyone

I have tried to write this without expressing any personal opinion.

I think it would be good to read Dave's original post concerning the Melbourne Medieval Festival.

http://www.ozbow.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=4301

Putting all the other issues aside the only valid questions would be, "At a public event is it wise to have the general public shooting arrows at a real person as distinct from a target"?

[Anysia]

"At a public event is it wise to have the general public shooting arrows at a real person as distinct from a target"?

That's just it.. it's not the 'general public'. It's not as if the kids are going to be allowed to take shots of local pedestrians, or other passers by because there aren't any. Strictly cordoned off, the kids using blunts, with the 'Knight in Armor" walking back and forth in a straight line. And the kids are drilled about not doing this outside the planned event.

[MaylandL]

..."At a public event is it wise to have the general public shooting arrows at a real person as distinct from a target"?

G'day Grahame
I find the debate and comments on this thread very interesting and I think worthy of discussion.

IMHO, I would not be in favour on any member outside of the reenactment group (ie general member of the public) shooting at a knight at an open event irrespective of whether it was an adult or a child. I think that can open up a messy can of worms with regards to public liability etc that I don't think any group would want to deal with. Also I would be reticient about having it as a display event given the risk children would copy that. I think that it would have to be strictly controlled and it would be restricted to adults demonstrating combat archery.

In my time at Grey Company, when we did demonstrations if memory serves me correctly, one of the senior members would announce that this was dangerous and not to do this at home kind of speech.

Different situation if it were just within the group at a private event and not open to the public. If it were strictly controlled and restricted to the children of the group members. In this situation I don't see it as any different to a combat archery event.

Happy shooting all

[stace]

To me the argument is NOT that the GENERAL PUBLIC be shooting at a knight (did I miss this)
It is the simple fact that if the GENERAL PUBLIC view the event they (the unsupervised ,possibly children ) can then go and attempt it themselves elsewhere with whatever equipment is available to them even if they make something themselves.Dread to think what a dowel with NO head would do out of a low poundage homemade bow.
I am at ease with a very controlled event within a club where no spectators are around and everything is supervised
stace

[Stickbow Hunter]

Thanks all for your comments on this subject as it is good get others opinions regarding this matter.

Ed,

There is no knee jerk reaction on my part or from anyone else who has replied as far as I can see.

Grahame,

This issue isn’t just about Dave’s thread, it is about people shooting arrows at each other, which has been mentioned in a number of threads recently.

It is the simple fact that if the GENERAL PUBLIC view the event they (the unsupervised ,possibly children ) can then go and attempt it themselves elsewhere with whatever equipment is available to them even if they make something themselves.

Stace,

I pretty much agree with this statement but I think it goes further. I don’t think shooting arrows at people should be promoted and in fact I don’t agree with people doing it at all – re-enactor members with all their safety precautions in place or not.

Why do these people see the need to shoot arrows at each other?

Why isn’t shooting at targets enough?

All archery clubs and associations that I know of go to great lengths to ensure the safety of their members and the public alike. This involves minimizing – as much as is possible – the danger of anyone being shot with an arrow. Why do they go to such measures; because bows and arrows can cause injury, even death, if used incorrectly?

I still firmly believe that a gun or a bow and arrow should NEVER (unless it is a life or death situation) be pointed at anyone let alone used to shoot at anyone!!!

Jeff