Mary Rose

Message

stace · #1 Post by **stace** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 6:43 pm

Noticed an Advertisment for a doco on the Mary Rose for those interested

On SBS at 7.30 on Sunday night
called "Tales of the Mary Rose "

For those who don't know what the Mary Rose signified ,it was the flag ship of King George #?which sank in the harbour and recovered with a treasure trove of artifacts including long bows and arrows
Hopefully it will show some of what we are interested in

Watched one on the ABC last night on Bodica(?)which showed an arrow being fletched with thread and then trimmed to shape
stace

Mick Smith · #2 Post by **Mick Smith** » Fri Oct 07, 2005 7:43 pm

Thanks Stace. I'll be tuned in for sure.

Mick

zetabow · #3 Post by **zetabow** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 6:59 pm

The Mary rose was Henry VIII flagship, it was the most advanced and powerful warship of it's time.

Unfortunately some idiot left the gun ports open during some tricky maneuvers. A lesson to be learned there somewhere

GrahameA · #4 Post by **GrahameA** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 7:13 pm

Hi Zeta

Well it was not so much:

Unfortunately some idiot left the gun ports open during some tricky maneuvers. A lesson to be learned there somewhere

But rather they did a refit of the ship - which included changing a bit of armanent.

The end result was a change in the dynamics of the ship so that it behaved differently and when it heeled the gunports now went below the waterline. (Hmm, not the smartest move.)

The lesson, perhaps, disasters lead to great Archeological treasure troves.

From the Mary Rose site:

The weight of the ship increased during her lifetime, she was rated at 500 tons in 1512 and at 700 tons when she sank.

The Mary Rose underwent two recorded major refits, one in Portsmouth in 1527-28 and the other in the Thames around 1536, it is assumed her burden was increased to 700 tons during this last refit.

Going from 500 tons to 700 tons seems to be asking for a few problems

This makes for an interesting read:
http://www.maryrose.org/history/history13.htm

archangel · #5 Post by **archangel** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:08 pm

Thanks for the advance notice about the Mary Rose program Stace. I love these historic docos and also saw the Boadicea show with traditional fletching of arrows. They looked just like the arrows that were shown on Ozbow a little while back.

zetabow · #6 Post by **zetabow** » Sat Oct 08, 2005 9:28 pm

I was lucky enough to visit the Mary Rose (what's left) at Portsmouth when if first came out the water.

My Bowyer (Blackbrook Bows) even luckyer, has been allowed to examine some of the Bows recovered from the wreck.

GrahameA · #7 Post by **GrahameA** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 5:33 pm

Hi Zeta

Now that would be a great visit.

The closest I have gotten was the Mary Rose exhibition when it came to Oz.

Hood · #8 Post by **Hood** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 9:02 pm

Just finished watching the doco. And boy did I enjoy it. How amazing it was that everything was preserved so well. Pitty they didn't say more about the bows and arrows they found.

emu · #9 Post by **emu** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 10:28 pm

I just watched the doco on the Mary Rose it was an excellent program the way that everything had been preserverd was unreal and the bows and arrows they recovered still looked in good condition.It was interesting to hear they used a copper based glue to do tips and fletching no wonder anyone hit was in trouble.
Cheers Emu

buzz · #10 Post by **buzz** » Sun Oct 09, 2005 11:04 pm

Yes, I was a little surprised about the copper based glue.

The galley was an interesting arrangement... I hadn't thought much about provision for cooking on a man'o'war!

I... saw the Boadicea show with traditional fletching of arrows. They looked just like the arrows that were shown on Ozbow a little while back.

I saw that too.... (hosted by Baldrick!) ~ I'm pretty lousy with English history, but I'd have thought that if they had decent bowmen in the not-much-AD era, a'la the Huns, then you would not bother going in and engaging the Romans up close like what that specialise in, but rather you would hang back an ventilate them from a distance.

GrahameA · #11 Post by **GrahameA** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:38 am

Hi Buzz

That has always been a question I have asked. ie What is with this hand to hand stuff why get from afar? Yet it always seems to end that way.

re the Romans. They seemed to have reasonable tactics to handle Archers.

re the Copper. The English were always being accused regarding the poisoned arrows. Initially is was thought it was a result of their habit of sticking them in the ground - or cow pats -lots of bacteria. But the copper based glue takes a vey different slant.

grizzly · #12 Post by **grizzly** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:49 pm

it was very interesting veiwing and i enjoyed it

a question about the copper glue
does anyone know what ingredients were in it and how it was made?
and
why were the english always being accused of poisoning their arrows,the arrows were meant to kill werent they?
poison arrows seems like it would have been the smart thing to do

stace · #13 Post by **stace** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 6:51 pm

Yeah the copper based glue was a new slant on the old story of poisoned arrows
Found the show very informitive and would have liked to have seen more on the archery gear as well .Did notice the re enacted section showed cow horn tips on the long bows so at least they stayed true to the era .
Also of interest was the musical instrument found and thought to be lost forever
Why aren't there more shows such as this instead of so called real life rubbish
stace

Hood · #14 Post by **Hood** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 7:59 pm

stace wrote:Yeah the copper based glue was a new slant on the old story of poisoned arrows
Found the show very informitive and would have liked to have seen more on the archery gear as well .Did notice the re enacted section showed cow horn tips on the long bows so at least they stayed true to the era .
Also of interest was the musical instrument found and thought to be lost forever
Why aren't there more shows such as this instead of so called real life rubbish
stace

I hear ya Stace I hate the so called reality shows and Oz Idol and so on. Love my Docos and Nature shows.

GrahameA · #15 Post by **GrahameA** » Mon Oct 10, 2005 8:19 pm

Grizzly

Poisoned arrows are not a nice way to die. Especially when it will take days.

The English were accused because a large percentage of people who had relatively minor wounds from English arrows would die. (Infection, poisoning?)

rapsod · #16 Post by **rapsod** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:37 am

what is copper based glue? Is copper added to glue or it is some type of glue made with usage of copper? What is usualy used glue in medieval times?

GrahameA · #17 Post by **GrahameA** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 6:35 am

Rapsod

Not so much copper based but rather glue with copper added - stops fungal rot etc.

Main glues were -

Animal based - eg hide glues or eisenglass (fish glue)

Vegetable based - eg pitch from pine trees.

hellier · #18 Post by **hellier** » Tue Oct 11, 2005 1:45 pm

I actually lived in a house on the site of Boudicca's battle with the Romans in Colchester UK....I'm not much for gardening but when I could bother to dig with the ol' spade I was forever turning up arrow heads....bloody dozens of the things...I gave most of them to the local museum 'til they got sick of the sight of them...t'was fun though...and made me think just how big an effort they (the Icenii) made in shooting the beejaysus out of the upstart Roman gits that tried to take over the place....More power to yer boudicca...

rapsod · #19 Post by **rapsod** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 10:58 am

I know that copper can be very dangereous especialy copper oxide. Bushido forbide poisonius arrows. I am folower of bushido so will not use copper on my arrows

Radsod

erron · #20 Post by **erron** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 11:05 am

Hellier, that is an amazing tale of yours, I quite envy you that experience!

Erron

zetabow · #21 Post by **zetabow** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 1:19 pm

hellier, did you get to do any shooting while in the UK.

I live quite close to the Towton battlefield, part of the War of the Roses and the bloodiest battle on English soil over 28,000 Lancasterians were massacred by Yorkest Longbowmen. Even today there's a dislike/distrust between a lot of Yorkshire and Lancashire folk.

http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/archsci/depa ... towton.htm

hellier · #22 Post by **hellier** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:23 pm

yeah it was pretty special but then so was the skulls we used to dig up in Grandma's veggie patch that was probably a plague pit

as for shooting in the UK I did a fair bit of re enactment stuff...Hastings 1066 and all that...and a fantastic two weeks at eindhoven prehistoric house in the nederlands...it's on google...learned a lot there about primitive techniques...and I hung out witth an armourer for a while...dawn of time crafts...we think we're pretty advanced these days but mate people in those days could make all kinds of stuff from the materials they had at hand.

zetabow · #23 Post by **zetabow** » Thu Oct 13, 2005 5:53 am

hellier wrote: a fantastic two weeks at eindhoven prehistoric house in the nederlands...it's on google...learned a lot there about primitive techniques

That sounds really interesting, think I'll take a look at that.

hellier · #24 Post by **hellier** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 9:59 am

Hey zetabow did ya know that there's still an unrepealed law in Bristol ( I think it's Bristol so tread carefully in case I'm giving yer a bum steer )...that states that upon discovering a welshaman within the city walls it is fine to take ones bow and arrow and shoot the bastard...

zetabow · #25 Post by **zetabow** » Sat Oct 15, 2005 5:24 am

Think that Law applies in quite a few English Citys, any takers on me testing out that old english medieval law

Dennis La Varenne · #26 Post by **Dennis La Varenne** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:41 am

Two small observations and comments re the Bodica and Mary Rose docos - beware of assuming that the demonstration arrow with bound-on fletching was a replica of a contemporary arrow rather a demo model inserted by the doco producers for illustration purposes, and I don't believe the poisoned copper arrow story for a minute.

Any deep penetrating wound inflicted during that period, inclluding those acquired by accident, were more than likely to have fatal results, and certainly a longish period of serious illness during convalescence if it were not. That was because of the insertion of soil bacteria like tetanus and/or clostridium bacilli being introduced into wounds. Tetany and Gas Gangrene are slow and painful miserable deaths characterised by high fevers and delirium and other distressing symptoms.

These bacilli are still present in soils and still just as lethal, but we have mostly been vaccinated against many of them and protected to a degree that did not exist in those times.

I think that in modern times we have forgotten just how easy it was to die from wounds in earlier times when bacteriocides did not exist or were not as well understood or even misused medically by modern standards.

From contemporary writings, it is clear that the people in those times did not know of infection being caused by bacteria or viruses. It would be reasonable for them to assume poisoning even if for reasons of propaganda which I am more inclined to believe.

Excessive copper in the body has signs and symptoms similar to Wilson's Disease and leads to absorption of copper into many of the body's internal organs leading to necrosis (death) of those tissues. However, it requires large doses of copper over a protracted period to cause widespread tissue destruction and death by this method.

I do not believe that the amound in the glue of an arrowhead which would almost certainly have been withdrawn from a wounded soldier would be sufficient to cause any kind of copper poisoning.

Secondly, we know that the English used their own military archers on each other in their many bitter and acrimonious civil wars, and it should have been noted among themselves that such poisoning occurred.

Thus far, I have never read of it.

My opinion is not a defence of English methods of warfare of those times. They and their various enemies operated under different rules of war than we do today. I am concerned that half-baked ideas of a documentary film-maker may be taken as researched proven fact when serious doubt can be shown.

Copper in large doses can certainly be poisonous to humans. It requires that the doses be large enough and over a long enough period to damage organs, especially the liver and kidneys. However, it is also a necessary mineral important to nerve functioning.

It is my opinion that an arrow shot soldier was far more likely to die from infection through introduced soil bacilli much sooner that any dose of copper would take effect.

Dennis La Varenne

jindydiver · #27 Post by **jindydiver** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:28 pm

So who watched the show tonight?

The wife and I enjoyed it a lot and were quite suprised to see the thickness ot the bow the re-enactment guy was using.

And what a deer at the end hey! Croaking away in full rut and with a rack any aussie bowhunter would give an eye tooth for.

Great stuff

Mick Smith · #28 Post by **Mick Smith** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:45 pm

I watched it mate. Yes there was a bit of archery in there. I too noticed the rutting fallow. I thought we might even see it being hunting for a minute.

Pity about Robin Hood though. It would have been nice to have been able to pin point him as a historical figure, but the past is too muddy for that to ever happen, by the look of it.

I enjoyed the section where the archers were shooting through a piece of knotted rope. I didn't get the gist of why they chose this as a target though. It seemed they had lots of public attention at the shoot.

Mick

Hood · #29 Post by **Hood** » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:55 pm

I missed it as I had to take the wife to the Doctors, so did any of you guys record it at all??????.

GrahameA · #30 Post by **GrahameA** » Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:55 am

Hi Mick. et al

The best part of it was that it was not definitive.

The legends are long and varied and to have said person xyz was the "RB" would have very suspect.

Jindy - Some re-enactors are moving towards more realistic bows (there are still a lot who are down at the 40-50lb mark though). The problem is that most cannot draw them. Once you head past 70lb most of us seem to struggle. Although, I know a chap who is working away happily at 90lb.

Mary Rose

Mary Rose

Mary Rose

mary rose