TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
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TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
Seem the TAA has a new proposed Equipment Guidelines draft to be ratified for 2020.
Unfortunately they appear to have got it wrong right from the first paragraph about Longbows:
Longbow refers to the traditional straight end style longbow. In some circles these are also known as American Flatbow’s.
The American Flatbows had wide limbs like a recurve, and were often shorter.
It would have been more correct to describe the traditional longbow as Howard Hill did - The American semi-longbow.
Why add this to the draft now? Seems to me that this is another example of history being re-written.
Unfortunately they appear to have got it wrong right from the first paragraph about Longbows:
Longbow refers to the traditional straight end style longbow. In some circles these are also known as American Flatbow’s.
The American Flatbows had wide limbs like a recurve, and were often shorter.
It would have been more correct to describe the traditional longbow as Howard Hill did - The American semi-longbow.
Why add this to the draft now? Seems to me that this is another example of history being re-written.
Last edited by Kendaric on Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:00 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
I agree wholeheartedly; longbows are not known a American flat bows.
I also had a chuckle at the first sentence; "Longbow refers to the traditional straight end style longbow." If a bow doesn't have straight ends than it isn't a longbow but at least no semi-recurves allowed. Also it appears that English Longbows, African Longbows, Papua New Guinea Longbows etc are not deemed longbows and must be shot in the Primative/Historic division. No biggie I guess.
Also I don't agree with the use of elevated arrow rests on longbows; shoot off the shelf or off the hand as per the bows design.
I'd also like to know what traditions they are upholding by having 'Hybrid' division. No such thing. Traditionally they were called semi-recurves. The division also excludes reflex/deflex bows it seems so what division do they get shot in, none.
Many of the old recurves of the 1940's, 1950's and even 1960's could not be shot in the Traditional Recurve division because of the materials they were made from. These bows include ones manufactured by Bear & Pearson etc. They might be made from fibreglass, aluminium and steel but they are real Traditional bows unlike the modern monstrosities with ILF fitting etc.
Another thing TAA should do IMO is only allow wood arrows to be shot at TAA State and National shoots. It doesn't't matter if the archers are competing or not; if they are too lazy to knock up some wood arrows then they don't deserve to shoot.
I think TAA needs to understand what Traditional really means and then take another look at the rules.
I also had a chuckle at the first sentence; "Longbow refers to the traditional straight end style longbow." If a bow doesn't have straight ends than it isn't a longbow but at least no semi-recurves allowed. Also it appears that English Longbows, African Longbows, Papua New Guinea Longbows etc are not deemed longbows and must be shot in the Primative/Historic division. No biggie I guess.
Also I don't agree with the use of elevated arrow rests on longbows; shoot off the shelf or off the hand as per the bows design.
I'd also like to know what traditions they are upholding by having 'Hybrid' division. No such thing. Traditionally they were called semi-recurves. The division also excludes reflex/deflex bows it seems so what division do they get shot in, none.
Many of the old recurves of the 1940's, 1950's and even 1960's could not be shot in the Traditional Recurve division because of the materials they were made from. These bows include ones manufactured by Bear & Pearson etc. They might be made from fibreglass, aluminium and steel but they are real Traditional bows unlike the modern monstrosities with ILF fitting etc.
Another thing TAA should do IMO is only allow wood arrows to be shot at TAA State and National shoots. It doesn't't matter if the archers are competing or not; if they are too lazy to knock up some wood arrows then they don't deserve to shoot.
I think TAA needs to understand what Traditional really means and then take another look at the rules.
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
I'm not sure where the elevated rest (toothbrush) on a longbow ever came from, for this draft. Cant say I have ever seen a longbow use one, though I have on a recurve. It would seem that this was done to appease some idiocratical idea of the draftees or a friend there of.
I see that some english archery retail stores (in traditional gear) tend to call anything that is not an ELB or recurve, an American flatbow. This is more out of ignorance, and probably with a little bit of animosity thrown in.
I'm not sure that the term "Modern Recurve" has any place in such a document promoting traditional archery (and hybrid for that matter). It would have simply been better to have Recurve and Traditional Recurve. Yes, the definitions become blurred when you consider the recurve bows you mentioned. It was my understanding that originally the idea behind the modern recurve division, even before it was separated, was to allow ABA, 3DAAA and AA recurvers to shoot in trad by using wood arrows, and removing sights and stabilizers, to prompt participation and attendance. By the logic of a Modern Recurve Division, then the Hybrid division should have become the Modern Longbow Division - but this was not done because of the aforementioned reason - that and Modern Longbow is just a modern marketing name for what was originally known as a semi-recurve.
I can understand the want to have a separate recurve division that uses a timber riser, and is shot off the shelf. Naming such a division becomes difficult due to the problem you mentioned before.
It is difficult to tell where ELB fits into these new categories. If I am reading it right, it could fit into either longbow or primitive/historical.
I see that some english archery retail stores (in traditional gear) tend to call anything that is not an ELB or recurve, an American flatbow. This is more out of ignorance, and probably with a little bit of animosity thrown in.
I'm not sure that the term "Modern Recurve" has any place in such a document promoting traditional archery (and hybrid for that matter). It would have simply been better to have Recurve and Traditional Recurve. Yes, the definitions become blurred when you consider the recurve bows you mentioned. It was my understanding that originally the idea behind the modern recurve division, even before it was separated, was to allow ABA, 3DAAA and AA recurvers to shoot in trad by using wood arrows, and removing sights and stabilizers, to prompt participation and attendance. By the logic of a Modern Recurve Division, then the Hybrid division should have become the Modern Longbow Division - but this was not done because of the aforementioned reason - that and Modern Longbow is just a modern marketing name for what was originally known as a semi-recurve.
I can understand the want to have a separate recurve division that uses a timber riser, and is shot off the shelf. Naming such a division becomes difficult due to the problem you mentioned before.
It is difficult to tell where ELB fits into these new categories. If I am reading it right, it could fit into either longbow or primitive/historical.
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Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
Yeah mate I agree and wonder where some of the thinking came from. Hopefully things will be discussed further and positive changes made.
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
The following paragraph is from ‘The Origin of TAA's Rules’
“If we are going to be fairdinkum about Promoting and Protecting what's traditional in Australia we should ensure that instead of changing our rules to suit someone’s equipment we have their equipment changed to suit our rules.”
With regard to the following it would appear that you are allowed synthetic core laminations in longbows.
LONGBOW
A longbow can be of any material or use any modern glue in its construction.
MODERN RECURVE
The limbs may be constructed of any material.
TRADITIONAL RECURVE
The limbs must have a wood core. Synthetic core laminations are not permitted.
To quote in part Dennis La Varenne; ‘back in the late 1980s or early 1990s’.
“The reality of life is that any definition from time to time will be the outcome of the factions within organizations at the time who will push their own views. None of us is exempt from that.”
“Different designs will occur from time to time, and their users will want to climb onto an existing bandwagon. If their bows don't conform, they will want the rules changed to suit.”
“However, the problem of having 4 disciplines in practice in Australia will perpetuate the problem unless and until each decides to sit down together to standardise definitions.”
3D AAA and TAA have since come into play.
I can remember reading in equipment definitions somewhere some time back that ‘in longbow the widest part of the limb cannot be wider than the handle.’
As far as I can work out ‘THE’ Associations do not care about Traditional archery. I believe that they are motivated to increase their membership base and increase attendance at shoots at any cost.
Daryl.
“If we are going to be fairdinkum about Promoting and Protecting what's traditional in Australia we should ensure that instead of changing our rules to suit someone’s equipment we have their equipment changed to suit our rules.”
With regard to the following it would appear that you are allowed synthetic core laminations in longbows.
LONGBOW
A longbow can be of any material or use any modern glue in its construction.
MODERN RECURVE
The limbs may be constructed of any material.
TRADITIONAL RECURVE
The limbs must have a wood core. Synthetic core laminations are not permitted.
To quote in part Dennis La Varenne; ‘back in the late 1980s or early 1990s’.
“The reality of life is that any definition from time to time will be the outcome of the factions within organizations at the time who will push their own views. None of us is exempt from that.”
“Different designs will occur from time to time, and their users will want to climb onto an existing bandwagon. If their bows don't conform, they will want the rules changed to suit.”
“However, the problem of having 4 disciplines in practice in Australia will perpetuate the problem unless and until each decides to sit down together to standardise definitions.”
3D AAA and TAA have since come into play.
I can remember reading in equipment definitions somewhere some time back that ‘in longbow the widest part of the limb cannot be wider than the handle.’
As far as I can work out ‘THE’ Associations do not care about Traditional archery. I believe that they are motivated to increase their membership base and increase attendance at shoots at any cost.
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
Thanks for sharing the download Daryl, that was interesting. So the Century21 bow started all the problems.
I don't mind Dennis's definition of what is an appropriate length of a longbow based on the archers height (at least shoulder height), as it is my understanding that many composite longbow bowyers recommend a particular length longbow based on the archers drawlength, for the best limb efficiency ie, a 26-27" drawlength is probably best served with a 64" longbow and 16" riser. Perhaps 66" was chosen because most semi-recurves are under 66", so it was also an easier method to help separate them.
It is perhaps why these are only guidelines, not rules, as many shooters just see "trad" as non-compound barebow only. It was surprising the number of shooters that wanted to include carbon arrows, which only supports this hypothesis. If these are only guidelines, then you can be true to the intention. Then individual clubs can then make their own rules based around the true intention, even if not sticking to it.
It is my understanding that Trad was also originally based around the type of arrows you would also hunt with (minus the broadhead). Hence perhaps why ABA insists on at least 12" of total fletching, and also use to (not sure if it does now) state that bows of 50lbs must have at least 125g of point weight. No mention of these requirements in TAA. I could see someone exploit this by using 70g points, 6-9 inch total fletching out of 60lb bow for the flattest trajectory. Hardly a hunting weight arrow.
If you are going to be true to the intention, either absorb hybrid into the recurve division, or if this proves too much resistance (which I suspect it will), re-name it semi-recurve. We have had the hybrid division long enough to transition it to either. The main point goal was to separate it from longbow, where is did not belong.
I don't mind Dennis's definition of what is an appropriate length of a longbow based on the archers height (at least shoulder height), as it is my understanding that many composite longbow bowyers recommend a particular length longbow based on the archers drawlength, for the best limb efficiency ie, a 26-27" drawlength is probably best served with a 64" longbow and 16" riser. Perhaps 66" was chosen because most semi-recurves are under 66", so it was also an easier method to help separate them.
I wonder if this conundrum could be served within the current traditional recurve draft by stating that "Actual recurves produced in the 1940-60's can also be shot in this division. Perhaps these particular bows are not included in the draft, as there are probably very few in shooting circulation, but mostly just in collections. But again, I suppose it is about preserving what is traditional.Stickbow Hunter wrote: ↑Thu Jun 04, 2020 5:51 pm Many of the old recurves of the 1940's, 1950's and even 1960's could not be shot in the Traditional Recurve division because of the materials they were made from. These bows include ones manufactured by Bear & Pearson etc. They might be made from fibreglass, aluminium and steel but they are real Traditional bow
It is perhaps why these are only guidelines, not rules, as many shooters just see "trad" as non-compound barebow only. It was surprising the number of shooters that wanted to include carbon arrows, which only supports this hypothesis. If these are only guidelines, then you can be true to the intention. Then individual clubs can then make their own rules based around the true intention, even if not sticking to it.
It is my understanding that Trad was also originally based around the type of arrows you would also hunt with (minus the broadhead). Hence perhaps why ABA insists on at least 12" of total fletching, and also use to (not sure if it does now) state that bows of 50lbs must have at least 125g of point weight. No mention of these requirements in TAA. I could see someone exploit this by using 70g points, 6-9 inch total fletching out of 60lb bow for the flattest trajectory. Hardly a hunting weight arrow.
If you are going to be true to the intention, either absorb hybrid into the recurve division, or if this proves too much resistance (which I suspect it will), re-name it semi-recurve. We have had the hybrid division long enough to transition it to either. The main point goal was to separate it from longbow, where is did not belong.
Last edited by Kendaric on Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
With regards to bow length some of the things to take into consideration are;Kendaric wrote: ↑Sun Jun 07, 2020 10:59 am I don't mind Dennis's definition of what is an appropriate length of a longbow based on the archers height (at least shoulder height), as it is my understanding that many longbow bowyers recommend a particular length longbow based on the archers drawlength, for the best limb efficiency ie, a 26-27" drawlength is probably best served with a 64" longbow and 16" riser. Perhaps 66" was chosen because most semi-recurves are under 66", so it was also an easier method to help separate them.
Bow material, bow design, limb to string angle at full draw and required draw weight. What is it's intended use?
Shorter recurved limbs can take a longer draw length before going into ‘stack’ straight limb bows need to be longer.
Think way before the advent of fibreglass.
Could you imagine a 120# plus war bow being 66” n to n?
A 40# target bow did not need to be 80” n to n.
There is little physical evidence available as to what the layman used centuries ago.
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
From Popular Mechanics 1941. Was the flatbow an adaptation of the English pattern longbow.
Was it the result of research done by Hickman showing that a rectangular cross section was more efficient than the 'D' section.
Outdoor Sports magazine circa 1940.
‘Now you can shoot THE NEW American FLAT BOW’
“Lemonwood can be had from most dealers in archery supplies, either in the rough stave or cut to approximate outline. The price ranges from about $1.75 to $3. In ordering you should be careful to say you need a wide stave for a flat bow. The dimensions given are for a bow 5 ft. 8 in. long with a weight (the archer's term for the strength of a bow) of from 45 to 50 lb. at a draw of from 27 to 28 in. This combination is suitable for the average man. When new the bow will draw 5 lb. or more above these figures. For clearness, only the upper limb of the bow is shown on the drawings. The lower limb is similar but slightly stronger. It should be 7/16 by 1½ in. at a point 14¼ in. below the center line; 3/8 by ¾ in. at a point 24¾ in. below the center; and 3/8 by 9/16 in. (instead of 3/8 by ½ in.) at a point 1 in. from the very end.”
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
I love these old pictures. I had the same document (see attachment).
Whilst not short, the limbs are quite wide and the handle section narrow. A board bow in many respects. Yes this is an American Flatbow, not a Howard Hill style semi-longbow (where the limb width to depth ratio is smaller for a start) which my understanding the traditional longbow division was suppose to be based (unless it wasn't in TAA, as appose to the definition of ABA Traditional Longbow) Whilst an American Flatbow (and ELB) could both fit into the TAA draft longbow definition, American Flatbow should not be now included in the description if meaning a Howard Hill style bow.
Whilst not short, the limbs are quite wide and the handle section narrow. A board bow in many respects. Yes this is an American Flatbow, not a Howard Hill style semi-longbow (where the limb width to depth ratio is smaller for a start) which my understanding the traditional longbow division was suppose to be based (unless it wasn't in TAA, as appose to the definition of ABA Traditional Longbow) Whilst an American Flatbow (and ELB) could both fit into the TAA draft longbow definition, American Flatbow should not be now included in the description if meaning a Howard Hill style bow.
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
I think that the more we delve in to the history of the flatbow in North America and the variations on a theme the one thing that remains constant is that the widest part of the limb is wider than the handle.
Having two divisions would make life easier.
Daryl.
Once fiberglass / carbon fiber was introduced it created a new ball game. Having two divisions would make life easier.
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
I see that under the traditional recurve division 2019, that the timber riser bow had to be shot off the shelf. The proposed 2020 revision now allows a non-mechanical elevated rest, no plunger button. Whilst in reality, it probably makes little difference to accuracy, the bow being shot off the shelf was a defining trait of this division I thought, but perhaps it has not been deemed so.
I thought this thread would spark more debate on the pros and cons.
I thought this thread would spark more debate on the pros and cons.
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
By and large I get the impression that most trad archers don’t give a rat’s about what may be considered traditional or not as long as they can participate with whatever gear they have and the rules don’t affect them.
Having two divisions, pre fiberglass and post fiberglass [no compounds] would simplify things.
What was the old saying about archery, 90% ability 10% equipment?
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
That might have been true once, and I remember the adage, but the modern compound can make the most mediocre archer shoot reasonably well - something they would not have been able to achieve with a compound bows some 20-30 years ago.
I suppose this is part of the appeal of Trad (at least one of the reasons for me), is that you have work at it.
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
I for one do not understand the drive to "define " the longbow or Recurve. IMO you can easily class these all as Traditional Style Longbow and Traditional Style recurve. We don't see the Compound shooters defining by the bow but by the way it is accessorised so why we continue the path of " My Definition " is the correct one is rubbish. The changes in design have all been driven by improvements in materials and if the English longbowman at Agincourt had access to the same tech they would have used it not quibbled over it. It was the purpose of the weapon. this push is more about splitting us into smaller and smaller groups to spread the Participation trophies around at competition. It is the same thought process which puts the Arrow materials as a defining factor, wood and Aluminium are Trad but carbon aren't, Well there are now Carbon Aluminium hybrids so where do they go?
If anything we should be broadening the definitions and if the shooter next to me is using an ACS CAD designed and CNC machined 3 piece take down whilst I have a Howard hill Style bow so be it I shoot to beat my previous efforts not those around me.
If anything we should be broadening the definitions and if the shooter next to me is using an ACS CAD designed and CNC machined 3 piece take down whilst I have a Howard hill Style bow so be it I shoot to beat my previous efforts not those around me.
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Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
I cannot fathom your thinking. Why on earth do you think the term longbow and recurve came about? Those words were used to describe the type of bow one was using. Each type of bow has inherent design characteristics which make them either a longbow or recurve or a flat bow etc. If a bow has recurve limbs then it certainly isn't a longbow.clinglish wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:49 am I for one do not understand the drive to "define " the longbow or Recurve. IMO you can easily class these all as Traditional Style Longbow and Traditional Style recurve. We don't see the Compound shooters defining by the bow but by the way it is accessorised so why we continue the path of " My Definition " is the correct one is rubbish.
The type of material doesn't make a bow a longbow or recurve etc; it is the bows design characteristics that does that.
I get tired of this old argument; time and time again we explain the reason for some shoots only allowing wood arrows is not for the reason that they are traditional and others aren't; the reason was/is to try and get people making wood arrows to ensure the craft of making a matched set of wood arrows is not lost.
Most definitely disagree. An ACS CAD designed and CNC machined 3 piece take down will never be a longbow regardless of what spin the manufacturers put on them.
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
Obviously my opinion is invalid as it doesn’t align with yours. I’m not hung up on the variety of “rules “ driven by a certain group in the archery community. TBH most of the people I have met shooting trad don’t care about the details they just enjoy shooting with like minded people. They show off their equipment and creating smaller and smaller groups to attempt to pigeon hole participants isn’t something that positively adds to the event.
But you do you
But you do you
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Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
I wonder if it might be advisable to change the division name from just "Longbow" to 'Traditional Longbow" as they have done for "Traditional Recurve".
The Australian Traditional Longbow was the Howard Hill style longbow.
This could help reduce the ambiguity of having just "Longbow" as it then becomes open to interpretation. Traditional longbow is more defined. ABA made the distinction.
As sorted out pointed out before, the ELB, African Longbows, and Papua New Guinea Longbows are left somewhat ambiguous as to where you could put them in the new draft. By defining the division as traditional longbow, that would then predicate that these bows naturally belong in the Historical/Primitive division.
The Australian Traditional Longbow was the Howard Hill style longbow.
This could help reduce the ambiguity of having just "Longbow" as it then becomes open to interpretation. Traditional longbow is more defined. ABA made the distinction.
As sorted out pointed out before, the ELB, African Longbows, and Papua New Guinea Longbows are left somewhat ambiguous as to where you could put them in the new draft. By defining the division as traditional longbow, that would then predicate that these bows naturally belong in the Historical/Primitive division.
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
Going by the TAA website, the proposed 2020 equipment guidelines have been ratified. Seems they dug their heels in, and went with their draft fully. Probably won't be long before hybrid get re-labeled as Modern Longbow, now that we have a Modern Recurve Division. Very traditional.
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
I've wanted to be involved in Trad comps since I was 12 I'm now 40 and still haven't been to one because of the way it is structured and divided and it's an absolute shame.
I've owned almost all styles of traditional gear at some point, it's very apparent to me that with practice anyone can become proficient enough to compete with any gear doesn't matter whether I've shot woods or carbons out of a self bow, laminate flatbow, d shaped longbow, Osage recurve, laminate recurve, woods, carbons, alloys with practice anyone can become profient with anything, heck I can out shoot my carbon shooting mates with woods almost every time.
Even a blind man can see that the current system is detrimental to competition archery Australia wide and in 2020 it's an outdated system and in desperate need of review, this is amplified for smaller or country clubs where only a handful of members shoot Trad.
A better system would've seen membership money from me for at least 20 years and there's at least another 20-30 years in me still.
My two cents worth anyways
I've owned almost all styles of traditional gear at some point, it's very apparent to me that with practice anyone can become proficient enough to compete with any gear doesn't matter whether I've shot woods or carbons out of a self bow, laminate flatbow, d shaped longbow, Osage recurve, laminate recurve, woods, carbons, alloys with practice anyone can become profient with anything, heck I can out shoot my carbon shooting mates with woods almost every time.
Even a blind man can see that the current system is detrimental to competition archery Australia wide and in 2020 it's an outdated system and in desperate need of review, this is amplified for smaller or country clubs where only a handful of members shoot Trad.
A better system would've seen membership money from me for at least 20 years and there's at least another 20-30 years in me still.
My two cents worth anyways
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Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
I concur with Clingish and Rhino1.
I have a Border Black Douglas recurve. Is there a 'recurve bows with more recurved limbs than normal recurve bows' division?
I might actually win and get wooden spoon in the same event.
I have a Border Black Douglas recurve. Is there a 'recurve bows with more recurved limbs than normal recurve bows' division?
I might actually win and get wooden spoon in the same event.
The degree of satisfaction gained from the accomplishment of a goal is directly proportional to the hardships and challenges overcome in order to achieve it.
border black douglas recurve 70# & 58# HEX6-H BB2 limbs
brigalow selfbow with rawhide string
border black douglas recurve 70# & 58# HEX6-H BB2 limbs
brigalow selfbow with rawhide string
- clinton miller
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- Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:51 pm
- Location: in the hills south of Stanthorpe, Qld.
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
TAA- Timber Arrows Australia. Ha ha ha.Stickbow Hunter wrote: ↑Wed Jun 24, 2020 9:57 pm I get tired of this old argument; time and time again we explain the reason for some shoots only allowing wood arrows is not for the reason that they are traditional and others aren't; the reason was/is to try and get people making wood arrows to ensure the craft of making a matched set of wood arrows is not lost.
Most definitely disagree. An ACS CAD designed and CNC machined 3 piece take down will never be a longbow regardless of what spin the manufacturers put on them.
If the overwhelming desire to have timber arrow only events is to preserve the craft of making timber arrows why is there no such desire to have self made bow only events so that the craft of making bows is preserved? After all, both are as important as each other in archery.
You say it's not because other types of arrows aren't traditional, then go on to say that a 3 piece metal riser longbow will never be a longbow? Why? It's a longbow.
Are we to have a 'not a longbow' longbow division?
Yes, I think I'll sit on a deer trail, alone, this weekend. Oh the liberty!
The degree of satisfaction gained from the accomplishment of a goal is directly proportional to the hardships and challenges overcome in order to achieve it.
border black douglas recurve 70# & 58# HEX6-H BB2 limbs
brigalow selfbow with rawhide string
border black douglas recurve 70# & 58# HEX6-H BB2 limbs
brigalow selfbow with rawhide string
- clinton miller
- Posts: 889
- Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 2:51 pm
- Location: in the hills south of Stanthorpe, Qld.
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
The irony. "Shoot a bow for fun"
But you better well use timber arrows boy!
The degree of satisfaction gained from the accomplishment of a goal is directly proportional to the hardships and challenges overcome in order to achieve it.
border black douglas recurve 70# & 58# HEX6-H BB2 limbs
brigalow selfbow with rawhide string
border black douglas recurve 70# & 58# HEX6-H BB2 limbs
brigalow selfbow with rawhide string
- Stickbow Hunter
- Supporter
- Posts: 11637
- Joined: Sat Jul 26, 2003 8:33 pm
- Location: Maryborough Queensland
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
Mainly because making self bows is too difficult for lot of people whereas making arrows is within the ability of most people. At the Trad shoots of old we always had bow making demos for those who were interested. There was also string making demos etc. I think TAA still do similar. Of course some people are just too lazy to be bothered to make a good set of wood arrows and they are usually the ones that whine and cry saying they won't go to any shoot where you have to shoot woods.clinton miller wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:24 pm TAA- Timber Arrows Australia. Ha ha ha.
If the overwhelming desire to have timber arrow only events is to preserve the craft of making timber arrows why is there no such desire to have self made bow only events so that the craft of making bows is preserved? After all, both are as important as each other in archery.
Well rather than answer this in full for about the 10,000th time I'll just quote an old saying from around Trad circles; "If I have to explain you wouldn't understand" and just leave it at that.clinton miller wrote: ↑Thu Oct 15, 2020 8:24 pm You say it's not because other types of arrows aren't traditional, then go on to say that a 3 piece metal riser longbow will never be a longbow? Why? It's a longbow.
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
The ABA state Title shoot that I attended on the weekend highlighted to me the Futility of this.
I shot a Fox Traditional Longbow ( Google if you arent sure if they are a longbow) with timber arrows from the same peg as the compound shooters
Now had I used Carbon arrows but the same bow at the same peg somehow there is some magical advantage. The statement that its about mainaining the art of arrow building IMO doesnt hold water.
Alot of people find that access to resources and the costs of both time and dollars involved in wood arrow building is the main reason they dont shoot them.
The other crazy thing is if I built a longbow from a stave of timber and for whatever reason was shooting carbons then im in a diferent division go figure.
Perhaps you shopuld also refrain in your responses from personal attacks or belittling those that disagree, its poor form in a debate
I shot a Fox Traditional Longbow ( Google if you arent sure if they are a longbow) with timber arrows from the same peg as the compound shooters
Now had I used Carbon arrows but the same bow at the same peg somehow there is some magical advantage. The statement that its about mainaining the art of arrow building IMO doesnt hold water.
Alot of people find that access to resources and the costs of both time and dollars involved in wood arrow building is the main reason they dont shoot them.
The other crazy thing is if I built a longbow from a stave of timber and for whatever reason was shooting carbons then im in a diferent division go figure.
Perhaps you shopuld also refrain in your responses from personal attacks or belittling those that disagree, its poor form in a debate
Bowhunting (Hunting for Bows)
Known Carrier of "Fox Bow Fever"
Known Carrier of "Fox Bow Fever"
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
From: https://targetcrazy.com/archery/gear/lo ... t-longbow/
"At the same time, indigenous people across North America were using their own version of the longbow. This bow, now called the American Flatbow, was used by Native Americans for centuries. It maybe was a bit shorter than the English longbow and the limbs were designed to be rectangular, wide, and flat. The limbs were wide but they narrow at the tips and in the middle where the archer was to hold the bow."
It appears the only change to the new 2021 TAA Equipment Guidelines was the removal of the 66" rule for longbows. No correction on the incorrect American Flatbow description. American Longbow would be more accurate.
"At the same time, indigenous people across North America were using their own version of the longbow. This bow, now called the American Flatbow, was used by Native Americans for centuries. It maybe was a bit shorter than the English longbow and the limbs were designed to be rectangular, wide, and flat. The limbs were wide but they narrow at the tips and in the middle where the archer was to hold the bow."
It appears the only change to the new 2021 TAA Equipment Guidelines was the removal of the 66" rule for longbows. No correction on the incorrect American Flatbow description. American Longbow would be more accurate.
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
Re reading this post and TAA equipment definitions refreshed my memory as to why I do not attend Association shoots.
The bows in the illustration are of an approximately 6,000 year old design the only difference being the materials used.
* *
Limb profile consists of wide thin section transitioning into a narrow thickened section which conforms to the English Longbow Society 1 to .625” rule. When braced the string does not make contact with the belly of the bow.
The wooden bow would probably be considered historical / primitive / selfbow but where does the glass / bamboo bow fit in. They are both shot off the knuckle.
Daryl.
The bows in the illustration are of an approximately 6,000 year old design the only difference being the materials used.
* *
Limb profile consists of wide thin section transitioning into a narrow thickened section which conforms to the English Longbow Society 1 to .625” rule. When braced the string does not make contact with the belly of the bow.
The wooden bow would probably be considered historical / primitive / selfbow but where does the glass / bamboo bow fit in. They are both shot off the knuckle.
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
Going by the current definition, it could be used in either the longbow division or the primitive/historic division, except for a fiberglass version, which would have to be used in the longbow division.
Describing the traditional longbow as an Amercian Flatbow is just incorrect, even if it is 'in some circles'. Better to remove the sentence completely.
However, it might be said, that removing the sentence would mean that the ELB could also be used in either the longbow division or the primitive/historic division.
Whilst I actually don't have any problems with the idea of having either the Flatbow or ELB being used in the longbow division - what is the true intention of the longbow division? If it is to mean the traditional longbow as in the American Longbow (that Howard Hill was most known for), then say that.
That is why Jordan Peterson says "always be precise in your speech".
By not being precise, one has inadvertently included an unintended bow style.
And still, in the current guidelines, string walking and fixed crawl is allowed in the Hybrid division, simply by it's omission to the contrary. Mind you, if string walking and fixed crawl was actually allowed, this is the division to put it in
Describing the traditional longbow as an Amercian Flatbow is just incorrect, even if it is 'in some circles'. Better to remove the sentence completely.
However, it might be said, that removing the sentence would mean that the ELB could also be used in either the longbow division or the primitive/historic division.
Whilst I actually don't have any problems with the idea of having either the Flatbow or ELB being used in the longbow division - what is the true intention of the longbow division? If it is to mean the traditional longbow as in the American Longbow (that Howard Hill was most known for), then say that.
That is why Jordan Peterson says "always be precise in your speech".
By not being precise, one has inadvertently included an unintended bow style.
And still, in the current guidelines, string walking and fixed crawl is allowed in the Hybrid division, simply by it's omission to the contrary. Mind you, if string walking and fixed crawl was actually allowed, this is the division to put it in
Re: TAA Proposed Equipment Guidelines 2020
Also; When one starts fiddling with rules / definitions more than likely there will be unintended consequences.
Daryl.
"And you must not stick for a groat or twelvepence more than another man would give, if it be a good bow.
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....
For a good bow twice paid for, is better than an ill bow once broken. [Ascham]
“If a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, of what, then, is an empty desk a sign?” [Einstein]
I am old enough to make my own decisions....Just not young enough to remember what I decided!....