japanese blade

[bsrecurve]

heres another one to continue the current trend/interest in quality knives.
was walking along with my girl today browsing in some department stores and low and behold - the greatest tool section/selection i've ever seen. i'm talking about one entire 20m aysle (sp?) devoted to sharpening stones/diamond sharpeners/files/ceramic sticks etc. then i found the knife section. i couldn't resist this one. set me back about $200aus roughly. 4mm thick blade, OAL 10", BL 5", damascus steel, hand made, unbeleivably sharp.
sorry - the pics are a bit crap.

[hellier]

seems to be folded...forged and folded...and forged again...and folded again ....dunno 'cos I'm too thick ...nice though...and what's under the wrapping on the handle...I wouldn't get it wet...the wrapping I mean...looks like silk..... ...just my two cents worth...

[bsrecurve]

i would guess that the black stuff is ray skin, but thats just a guess. dont think the wrapping is silk, feels more like good old polyester to me. but yes, basically damascus is folded numerous times along with the forging proccess - i'm no expert tho.

[rapsod]

There is something wrong with this "Japanese blade". The laminated part must be in center and not at side! Believe me this is not damascus. I think that this knife is some good chinese copy. And what is this combat knife, fish knife or throwing knife.

[bsrecurve]

as i said in the first post - the pics are crap, and there are some details you cant see. as for what the knife is for - well whatever purpose i want it to be for. copy? - copy of what? are you japanese by any chance? you sound like an expert, so please enlighten me as to the facts.

[jindydiver]

Brian
I think rapsod is just in over his head mate.

Your blade is in the traditional style of Japanese knives and has a chisel edge. It is a very common thing to mix what the Japanese call "white steel" and "blue steel" and make steel billets.
But yes your pics don’t do it justice and based on the look in your pics (the overdone etching and lack of any hamon) I would have thought the “damascus” pattern on your blade is just etched in, and isn’t anything to do with real folded steel. The problem with your blade is that the hardest steel is normally the one to get the etched look. That would mean your steels are **** about? And the style of knife only traditionally has (on most blades, but not all) 1 layer of each steel only. You blade seems to be a mixture of styles and so looks a little odd.


Could you get some different pics of it for us so we can see it in different lights? Or could you find some info on the maker?

[bsrecurve]

thanx for the insight jindy. although i am/was somewhat sceptical of rapsods knowledge/expertise, he has certainly given me food for thought. you have now given me more. upon reading rapsods post, i went back to the knife to re-examine with much more care and attention, and it seems in one way he is right - kind of. i origionally assumed the lower primary grind was actually covering up the damascus, however i have actually found (after some very close scruitiny of the choil, ricasso and blade spine) that the knife is somewhat of a hybrid (jeez i am getting to be annoyed with that word). it is actually san mai (three layers) with an interesting variation. there is a definate (but not easy to see) middle working steel, sandwiched between damascus, which i guess is mostly cosmetic. i have no doubt the steel on either side of the working layer is folded (not etched), as you can (again looking closely) see the layers running from the choil into and along the base of the ricasso, as well as the main central working steel in the middle. chinese copy? - absolutely not - this knife was made in japan by a japanese man, i have established that without a doubt. i have contacted a few well-respected knifemakers who specialise in damascus and have studied in japan, and when i recieve their replies i will share their insights also. i was certainly wrong to say straight-out it was a "damascus" knife, but i still have no doubt as to its quality. the overall design and construction speak highly of whoever made it, and you simply cannot get an edge of this quality on cheap/soft steel.
as for pics, well i must have taken about 50 or so with my (pretty cheap) digital camera, from various angle/light levels etc. i simply cannot take a decent close-up. it just doesnt foccus well enough. if it did i'd also be showing off the limb tip overlays on the chekmate falcon i got recently.
anyway - i'm eagerly awaiting those email replies from the experts, cant wait to hear their opinions.

[bsrecurve]

was just having a bit of a search on google and found this. it has some info about old mate and his knives. pretty much confirms my thoughts in the above post. the "iwazakana" would make a great little skinner IMO.

http://www.fine-tools.com/saji.htm

[jindydiver]

Brian
Are you saying your blade is ground on both sides? from the pics I assumed it was only ground on one side.

[rapsod]

I am not knife expert. I know that japanese knife is made of pure hard steel.
Well, used to. Kitchen knives are made of 2 layers of steel. One soft and another hard. Hard steel is made by lamination. Blade is usually ground on one side. Maybe this knife is made of 3 layers. But I hot know why that japanese man used laminated steel as sides? This is completely wrong sword logic. I believe now that is japanese, after I saw http://www.fine-tools.com/saji.htm.

[bsrecurve]

yeh jindy - sorry. shoulda made that clear earlier on. its ground on both sides. rapsod - i unsderstand the logic behind the construction/design of the japanese sword, but this is a knife and will be used for tasks other than dismembering a bloke in armour. i'm certain it will hold up to any job i can reasonably ask of it.

since last night i've found quite a few websites with info on saji. he has a very good rep among the japanese knife makers/customers. he is somewhat of a freelance, and is self-employed. he's been making knives for a long time and knows his s#&t. he makes standard and custom knife designs if you want something different. maybe i'll pay him a visit one day

[jindydiver]

Japanese swords aren’t made by laminating steel. Japanese steel was made from combining iron sand and charcoal in a forge to make a product called tamahagane that is then beaten and folded many times to mix the elements, remove impurities and to bring the carbon content back down to a usable level. You will never find a piece of steel that is made in the traditional way that will etch up in beautiful layers like you see in the “Damascus” blades of today. They are a relatively recent phenomenon.

You should visit him Brian. I am sure it would be an amazing experiance

[bsrecurve]

for sure mate - its very high on my "to do" list.
pics and story of the visit to follow - but maybe not for a while yet.

[ed]

Jindy and rapsod are right these kinds of knives are a recent thing (jindy) and are not made like the swords and knives used to be made (rapsod).
Swords and old knives often were made of several peices of metal, the edge peice being the most folded one and tempered to be harder.

I have never seen an old sword with lamination lines on them - that is the recent phenomenon for Japanese cooking knives etc. In older blades the folds were very thin - the idea being to reduce the size of any flaws in the original metal by halving it's width again and again. Any metal folded like this does not have easily visible layering (some were known to be folded 15 times or so making for thousands of layers in a small peice of metal). Folding the metal becomes a bit unnecessary with good quality iron as a base, which is why the Japanese liked Damascus steel as it saved them the forge work. The strength of the old blades is not from the folding (though it reduced any bad weaknesses from flaws) but from the tempering.

The idea of three sectioning a blade (up to five sections was relatively common) was so that there was less work - not folding the metal as much if it was to go on the back as flaws there are not as critical. It does little for the strength as obviously a whole blade made out of heavily folded metal would have the least flaws in it. There is a noted difference in the hardness/brittleness of the blades due to the tempering process being uneven, which also produced a tempering line which became a bit of an artwork for many makers. Clay was applied to the blades and then scraped off the edge in a pattern, the whole thing heated and then dowsed. Any blacksmith knows that heating changes a metals color and the line is made by allowing the edge to get to the desired temperature but the rest being insulated enough so that it does not change color - hence the line. The modern knives do not have these as they are not differentially tempered.

So from an old sword perspective these things look all wrong, but from a modern perspective they are exactly the sort of thing you would see being sold in Japan - seen more than a few of them there myself. personally I think they are ugly as hell but hey that is a matter of taste.

[bsrecurve]

ed - i agree that a lot of the old style swords/knives are much more appealing to the eye, but i still like this knife too. you could certainly say its much less "subtle" - no doubt about it.

i have no doubt however it will (and it does already) work well for many different kinds of cutting chores, and it holds its excellent edge for a long time, without need for resharpening.

as much as i like the more traditional style knives, this one really is better for me as i want a working knife - not a beautiful peice of art that i couldnt afford, or bear to use anyway.

[CameronPotter]

Hi,

Just to clarify a few things. I suspect that you are right and the this is a San Mai blade.

The reason for San Mai is to produce a beautiful pattern using softer damascus steel and have a very hard core. They are awesome knives (AND swords) if done properly. The fact that yours has a sabre grind (ie both sides) means that it is westernised but that is fine if it is OK with you.

As for all of the talk about "original damascus"...

Well...

Original damascus was named after the city of Damascus and it wa a major trading town. The steel originally came from India and was forged multiple times to remvoe impurity. Many people "in the know" also call it 'wootz'.

These days damascus is for looks. Why? Because there is no need for folding the metal to remove impurities. An old smith seeing the steel we get today would think that the steel was somehow magical or something. It is far advanced from anything they had.

As for seeing layers, I don't know where you got that information, but if you look up Oakeshott (the most reliable source of information on swords) you will find plenty of examples of visible folds in the metal, but they did tend to be a bit less obviously.

Now, the layers occurred not due to two metals, but due to carbon (from the forges) on the outside of the steel which was folded in to make steel (rather than iron). (Don't get me wrong, I don't mean they folded in soot or anything, but the heat and fold and weld and heat and fold and weld technique introduced layers).

Finally, contrary to popular opinion, Japanese steel from centuries ago was not great. In fact, the average steel in Europe was superior. The problem was that the only iron that was commonly available was from iron sand and needed a lot of purification. Even then, it had to be worked a lot to remove impurities (which were burnt out in the forging process). Thus, smiths were revered as this was a complex task that took a long time and produced much better results than were commonly available to the rest of the populace.

The swords of the samurai etc were very well designed also, but were designed for fighting opponents with little armour and they were made for slicing not chopping. However, they did create various things such as mokume gane which was created as sword furniture first by the japanese swordsmiths - who appreciated the look of worked metal.

Nowadays, Japanese steel is very good (due to modern techniques and imports) and many excellent knife makers reside there. So in summary.

It looks like a great knife and I am jealous!